TheNewTopical.com - current events, politics, culture, ethics, economics discussion forum  

Go Back   TheNewTopical.com - current events, politics, culture, ethics, economics discussion forum » Main Forum » The Principle of the Thing

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 16-10-11, 01:33 AM
contracycle's Avatar
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,150
Default What is democracy for?

What is democracy for?
Elections are meant to be an opportunity for the public collectively to judicate on competing visions of the good society, but democracy has been eroded under a system that marginalises the majority, argues Neal Lawson

This is a moment that needs to be seized and used for our kind of politics. There's the danger that this moment just plays itself out and we don't get the level of change to our political system that we want - but we won't know unless we test it, really try to push it and make things happen. The two main political party leaders don't want the kind of change the country needs. They certainly won't act without real pressure from below.

Like many, I've been guilty of thinking that change in politics happens easily - through a press release and a bit of a campaign. In fact meaningful change, such as electoral reform, happens through struggle, by building pressure, being committed, through sacrifice. Because in politics nothing of any value is simply given away, particularly power. You have to fight for it, you have to win it.

Competing visions
Firstly I want to step back and consider what democracy is for. I don't think we talk enough about this. We talk a lot about what kind of democratic system we want - and that is absolutely right and proper - but the most important question is 'what is democracy there to do'?

Democracy can only be about one thing really. It's about competing visions of the good society, different visions of how you want to live your life yourself and with others. Coming from the left I have a particular view of that, but I obviously understand that people on the right have an equally genuine and legitimate view of what they want the good society to be.

We can come up with great answers, the best technical, fairest, most representative, accountable, legitimate - every criteria you want. We could design a fantastic theoretical political democratic model. But unless that model is infused with, and has running through it, the lifeblood of what you want to use the democratic system for, it is useless.

I want the system to be fair, accountable and legitimate - but I also want it to be about something. Because there's no point in going to vote, however representative your vote is, however much your vote counts, if it can't change anything, if all three parties are saying pretty much the same thing.

That is the space that we've got ourselves into.

So this is a moment for change not just in terms of electoral systems but in terms making the democratic system work as the place in which we have competing visions of the good society.

I always like the notion that if the democratic space in Greek terminology was the agora (the ring), the space in which people as citizens stood and talked and debated and collectively decided their future, then the pro-market people today are the agoraphobics - people who fear that open space, where people collectively campaign and make decisions, because they would rather it were done as individuals.

The market state
In the past few decades we've gone from a bureaucratic state to a market state. And clearly what we've seen in the past few months is the collapse of the notion that markets are efficient, that they work, that they can deliver for people. Markets can be brilliantly dynamic, creative, and innovative. But they are also destructive as well. They always tend towards over-accumulation; they always push themselves too far.

Markets have no morality. They just look for more and more areas of profit. And by pushing democracy and society to the margins, they destroy the fertile territory that they need to operate. Markets need people, they need families, they need social fabric, they need trust: all the things that markets don't do are eaten up by their steady progression into all aspects of our lives, our communities, our societies. So in a sense this crisis of markets was always going to happen. They were always going to over-accumulate, to take more and more financial risks.

And they were certainly going to do it under a first-past-the-post voting system - a system that as we well know only listens to a few swing voters in a few swing seats, that is only going to listen to Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre, that is only going to listen to the City and the very few voices that count, which are going to say that 'the market way, the individualistic way, the consumer way is the only way'. And so it was a crisis that was almost bound to happen, and I think that the political system and first-past-the-post played a huge part in that.

So, after the 'bureaucratic state' and the 'market state', what comes next? For me it's the democratic state: the state in which people - their voices, decisions and votes - hold sway. Not the person in Whitehall knows best, not outsourcing, PPP, Serco-Capita and all the rest, but people as citizens making choices and decisions collectively, in their communities, through their public services, and in the way Westminster is elected and held to account. That is what we have to explore in the coming weeks, months and years: what are the institutions, framework and culture of the democratic state?

The democratic society
What spurs me on and why I'd still describe myself as a 'social-ist' (someone who believes in society and the role and value of society) is that you can see now the way in which democracy becomes both the means and the ends of our politics.

For most of my lifetime, including in my time in the Labour Party, politicians have just seen democracy as a means to an end, a way of getting elected and put into power. But the democratic society must be one in which we are empowered - not just by fair votes at Westminster and in local government, as important as that obviously is but as citizens with a voice and a say in our communities and at work. We should be citizens in our public services, too, not just passive recipients. Indeed, the answer to virtually every problem that we face is daring more democracy in our politics, our communities and our workplaces.

That is my vision of the good society. Socialism is about people having a voice and a say and having control over their lives; neither a machine telling them, nor a market pushing and dictating to them, but them collectively deciding, debating, discussing and moving towards some kind of consensus about what they want.

And in that means and ends come together. Democracy is not just the route by which we come to the good society - it is the good society itself. And while the notion of people having autonomy, of them having the ability to control and influence and determine their lives through democratic organisation at all those levels seems to me to be an inspiring vision of what the good society is, it does need a democratic system to enable it to happen.

You only change the big things in your community, your locality, your country - or the world - by binding together and joining with others. I can't stop the destruction of the planet on my own. I can only do that by combining together with other people, but that process has to be democratic, legitimate and accountable. Not the old party machines, not the old socialism but a properly democratic socialism - that's what I believe in. I want a state that is answerable to the people - that's why I believe in electoral reform and why I believe that the state should be democratised at every level, because it's our state not theirs. I know that it's only the state operating democratically, fairly and accountably, that is going to deliver the more equal, sustainable and democratic society that I aspire to.

The present moment crystallises all this. This is a moment for the electoral reform movement to make a huge advance, and we must do everything to seize this opportunity. But beyond that we need to recognise that democracy is not just an instrumental good - it is an intrinsic good. It is the way in which we build the good life and the good society.

This is an edited version of Neal Lawson's keynote address to the annual general meeting of the Electoral Reform Society

What is democracy for? | Red Pepper
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 16-10-11, 10:58 AM
Gilles de Rais's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,639
Default

Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
The two main political party leaders don't want the kind of change the country needs. They certainly won't act without real pressure from below.
Depends what you mean but, if you mean, reforms to the voting system to allow for more parties, no, of course, they don't want that - They benefit from status quo.


Quote:
Like many, I've been guilty of thinking that change in politics happens easily - through a press release and a bit of a campaign. In fact meaningful change, such as electoral reform, happens through struggle, by building pressure, being committed, through sacrifice. Because in politics nothing of any value is simply given away, particularly power. You have to fight for it, you have to win it.
Under the present system, all you got to do is get the majority in every district. If a press release and a bit of a campaign does that, it's easy. If not, you do have a struggle. Because, short of that, the parties benefiting from the status quo won't change to a more representative system.

OTOH, people were given the choice to vote for AV and it all got pretty mushed-up, didn't it? The counter-claim of "first-past-the-post-allows-for-effective-governing" was decent PR and a bit of campaigning and it did the job without too much struggle.

Quote:
Democracy can only be about one thing really. It's about competing visions of the good society, different visions of how you want to live your life yourself and with others.
Self-evident.

Quote:
Coming from the left I have a particular view of that, but I obviously understand that people on the right have an equally genuine and legitimate view of what they want the good society to be.
Well, otoh, there is such a thing as "data" and "reality".

Quote:
... if all three parties are saying pretty much the same thing.
Are they, though? As we can see with things like student fees and the NHS, I think they say materially different things.


Quote:
And they were certainly going to do it under a first-past-the-post voting system - a system that as we well know only listens to a few swing voters in a few swing seats...
I am no expert and the guy is a politician so he probably knows better than me but wouldn't that be more a consequence of gerrymandering than of "first-past-the-post"?

I never got the point of a geographic split of voting for the national chambers. Except in the case of the French or of the US Senate where the whole point is to give voice to a discreet geographical entity, it makes no sense.

Quote:
For most of my lifetime, including in my time in the Labour Party, politicians have just seen democracy as a means to an end, a way of getting elected and put into power.
Yeaaah, people. They're such a disappointment.


Quote:
That is my vision of the good society. Socialism is about people having a voice and a say and having control over their lives; neither a machine telling them, nor a market pushing and dictating to them, but them collectively deciding, debating, discussing and moving towards some kind of consensus about what they want.
The same thing everyone ever wanted: Food on their plate, a roof over their head, some action between the bedsheets, healthy kids, enough money for a bit of fun with the family and with your buddies. Some buddies who like you well enough. And the respect of your peers. For the more egocentric, crank that up to 'admiration of your peers'. A secure future. You know, the Maslow pyramid.

Quote:
that's why I believe in electoral reform and why I believe that the state should be democratised at every level, because it's our state not theirs. I know that it's only the state operating democratically, fairly and accountably, that is going to deliver the more equal, sustainable and democratic society that I aspire to.
Well. Obama just found out it ain't that simple. But, on a side note, err, who wants to actually get involved with local public service provision? You'd have to pay me to attend a school parental meeting with the school authority. I've done that and I couldn't believe it. It's not that the people there were evil (they were actually smart, educated and well-off people, if a bit racist) but I just wanted to shoot everybody and run things myself.
__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 16-10-11, 01:34 PM
contracycle's Avatar
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,150
Default

Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Are they, though? As we can see with things like student fees and the NHS, I think they say materially different things.
Well not really. The Lib Deams change their position to agree with the Tories, and Labour promises, to paraphrase Steve Bell, to only be 2/3 as evil as the Tories. so the old status quo of public support for education has been wiped out and replaced with a fee-paying one, an nothing the public has had to say on the matter has had any impact.

Quote:
Yeaaah, people. They're such a disappointment.
This doesn't mean anything.

Quote:
The same thing everyone ever wanted:
I don't see what this has to do with anything, and its not complete. The point he's making is that he approves a methodology by which these things get organised.

Anyway, the point of posting this was that you and Z both treat the current arrangements as if they were an end, not a means.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 16-10-11, 02:00 PM
Gilles de Rais's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,639
Default

Quote:
The Lib Deams change their position to agree with the Tories, and Labour promises, to paraphrase Steve Bell, to only be 2/3 as evil as the Tories.
Then don't vote for the LibDems again or for Labour either. Or, if you have the time and inclination, join in and get the internal support to have your agenda adopted as the manifesto.

The LibDems didn't drop their position on fees because they had a change of heart. They did it because they wanted to trade support on this for other purposes...

Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
so the old status quo of public support for education has been wiped out and replaced with a fee-paying one, an nothing the public has had to say on the matter has had any impact.
Well, the public hasn't been really clear on which other program they'd rather see being cut. Just saying "don't touch higher education!" isn't enough. The NHS? Don't touch that either! Pensions? Fuck you! Defense? Our boys and girls! Okay, no spending cuts then. What about raising revenues? Hell, yes. Well, okay, we'll increase VAT and income tax then? Fuck no!

Okay - back to square one: People want public services but a lot of people don't want to pay for them...

Quote:
This doesn't mean anything.
He is disappointed that politicians are self-serving. I am not. I expect them to be. What I want is a system that aligns their rewards with our interests.

Quote:
Anyway, the point of posting this was that you and Z both treat the current arrangements as if they were an end, not a means.
The fact that it is a means is self-evident, as I said. And I am not exactly fussed or entirely sure whether proportional representation is better or worse than "first-past-the-post" or the merits/demerits of AV or any other particular form of representative democracy you choose to examine. I lived under the French system, the English and, for a very short while, the US one. I can't say their differences made much impression on me. The outcomes, yes but that's "the end" rather than "the means".
__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 16-10-11, 02:14 PM
contracycle's Avatar
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,150
Default

Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Then don't vote for the LibDems again or for Labour either. Or, if you have the time and inclination, join in and get the internal support to have your agenda adopted as the manifesto.
Quite so. But then they can;t vote for any of the parties, and as I know all too well, people then give you stick for witholding your vote. We don't even make much of an issue of witheld or spoiled ballots. So sure, they should do something, but what? The occupation movement is providing that alternative.

Quote:
The LibDems didn't drop their position on fees because they had a change of heart. They did it because they wanted to trade support on this for other purposes...
It doesn't matter, they defended it openly. So whatever their "real" reasons might be, this is now their policy.

Quote:
Well, the public hasn't been really clear on which other program they'd rather see being cut. Just saying "don't touch higher education!" isn't enough. The NHS? Don't touch that either! Pensions? Fuck you! Defense? Our boys and girls! Okay, no spending cuts then. What about raising revenues? Hell, yes. Well, okay, we'll increase VAT and income tax then? Fuck no!
And rightly so.

Quote:
Okay - back to square one: People want public services but a lot of people don't want to pay for them...
No, people object to the cost being passed to the most exploited members of society rather than its beneficiaries. They object to being made to pay for a crisis caused by the rich.

Quote:
He is disappointed that politicians are self-serving. I am not. I expect them to be. What I want is a system that aligns their rewards with our interests.
That wasn't the thrust of his argument. Whether for "good" reasons or bad, institutional, machine politics has detached itself from representing the public.

The argument about AV is essentially unimportant to me. As I said, I what I thought was worth remembering is that the whole point of this system is, nominally, to represent the interests of the public - and all the arguments about "triangulation" and "occupying the centre ground" and all that stuff are contrary to that goal.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 16-10-11, 02:59 PM
Gilles de Rais's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,639
Default

Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Quite so. But then they can't vote for any of the parties, and as I know all too well, people then give you stick for witholding your vote.
Vote for the BNP, UKIP and/or whatever left-wing party operates on the left of Labour. Look at the collapse of the LibDems. It took them decades to get to 20% and matter once more and they seem to have ruin that within one year, falling back to below 8-9%. Up and down can happen quickly, although up is usually slower. But Obama made it up pretty much instantly.

Quote:
It doesn't matter, they defended it openly. So whatever their "real" reasons might be, this is now their policy.
Well, yes but because they seem to have mismanaged the selling of that u-turn to their base, they are being literally eviscerated by the voting public and/or will as soon as there is a vote. If that's not democracy in action, I don't know what is.

I haven't followed LibDems' arguments about this but they should have said "Look, yes, we had to give up on that but hey, on the other hand, look at all the other goodies we managed to extract from the Tories in exchange for that u-turn". The base might have grumbled but they'd have had a better chance of retaining them.

Quote:
No, people object to the cost being passed to the most exploited members of society rather than its beneficiaries. They object to being made to pay for a crisis caused by the rich.
Then how come they voted Conservatives and support, by and large, tax cuts, especially cuts to the inheritance tax?

We examine the recent battle for federal estate tax repeal in order better to understand the role of public opinion in enacting legislation, particularly regarding low salience issues. In Part I, our analyses of the polling data show how the contours of public opinion were strategically interpreted in the policy debate. When the issue was framed as a matter of fairness, mis-perceptions of self-interest and principled beliefs about fairness combined to yield apparently overwhelming support for repeal.

http://www.yale.edu/macmillan/shapiro/ycias02.pdf

Quote:
That wasn't the thrust of his argument. Whether for "good" reasons or bad, institutional, machine politics has detached itself from representing the public.
... because the incentives aren't aligned, not because politicians are fickle creature with low moral standards (they might well be. But then so are most human beings).

Quote:
The argument about AV is essentially unimportant to me. As I said, I what I thought was worth remembering is that the whole point of this system is, nominally, to represent the interests of the public - and all the arguments about "triangulation" and "occupying the centre ground" and all that stuff are contrary to that goal.
I didn't care to understand about AV either. I just thought it should win so as to not bury political reform for another decade. But I don't see how occupying the centre ground is not representing the interests of the public. Most people are 'centre' within their own particular zeigest. Supporting gay marriage was extreme 20 years ago, it's pretty 'centre' now. Right now, supporting gay adoption is pretty extreme, it'll probably be 'centre' in 20 years...
__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 16-10-11, 03:10 PM
Zichao's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,038
Default

Quote:
Well, otoh, there is such a thing as "data" and "reality".
But it's like in the other thread, at the end of the day it's more likes and dislikes that carry it. Personally I want to have to fight for what I want - that's just what I like. Contra doesn't. It's irreconcilable.

Otherwise I more or less agree with the article. Israel has proved that you can have PR and coherent leadership as long as there's plenty of outside pressure.
__________________
Standard disclaimer: the disgusting statements contained in this post are the views of the poster, and unless specified do not represent the views of the moderators or the site's owners.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 16-10-11, 03:43 PM
contracycle's Avatar
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,150
Default

Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Vote for the BNP, UKIP and/or whatever left-wing party operates on the left of Labour. Look at the collapse of the LibDems. It took them decades to get to 20% and matter once more and they seem to have ruin that within one year, falling back to below 8-9%. Up and down can happen quickly, although up is usually slower. But Obama made it up pretty much instantly.
All of this was dead since 1997. Labour won a massive landslide and immediately sold out. People gave up, defected to the LibDems, and they sold out. The only thing that will make a difference is to exert popular control over the parties, and our representative system does not allow that.

Quote:
Well, yes but because they seem to have mismanaged the selling of that u-turn to their base, they are being literally eviscerated by the voting public and/or will as soon as there is a vote. If that's not democracy in action, I don't know what is.
you;re missing the point. I didn't say that a party cannot lose support. I'm pointing out the way our system works, the parties have the real power to make decisions and pass laws by virtue of winning an election, regardless of whether they had a mandate for those particular measures. That's the reality. Yes, in principle, another government can then be elected and reverse the changes. But that doesn't happen because we can only turn to another party that has just as much capacity for selling out. Then consensus among the political class trumps the democratic action of voters.

I haven't followed LibDems' arguments about this but they should have said "Look, yes, we had to give up on that but hey, on the other hand, look at all the other goodies we managed to extract from the Tories in exchange for that u-turn". The base might have grumbled but they'd have had a better chance of retaining them.


Quote:
Then how come they voted Conservatives and support, by and large, tax cuts, especially cuts to the inheritance tax?
but they didn't really. The LidBems stood as a left-liberal group, and between them and Labour, that broad left won a majority of all votes.

Quote:
... because the incentives aren't aligned, not because politicians are fickle creature with low moral standards (they might well be. But then so are most human beings).
Yes, that's exactly the point the OP argued.

Quote:
But I don't see how occupying the centre ground is not representing the interests of the public.
Because, as has been pointed out before, the "centre ground" is defined by the big battalions on either end. And god is on the side of the big battalions. What we've got is a setup in which politicians get their mandate from something like 40% of the population, but then only pursue the interests of about 10% of the population, because that 10% is undecided and therefore capable of tipping the balance. So in effect the 40% on either flank end up getting ignored.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 16-10-11, 03:45 PM
contracycle's Avatar
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,150
Default

Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
But it's like in the other thread, at the end of the day it's more likes and dislikes that carry it. Personally I want to have to fight for what I want - that's just what I like. Contra doesn't. It's irreconcilable.
What I want is to keep what I earn and earn what I keep. Apparently you want to work as someone else's servant because you like to feel persecuted.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 16-10-11, 05:23 PM
Zichao's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,038
Default

Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
What I want is to keep what I earn and earn what I keep. Apparently you want to work as someone else's servant because you like to feel persecuted.
Yep. And there's not one tiny little thing you can do to change that.
__________________
Standard disclaimer: the disgusting statements contained in this post are the views of the poster, and unless specified do not represent the views of the moderators or the site's owners.
Reply With Quote
Reply


(View-All Members who have read this thread : 5
AnonymousIdiotSavant, contracycle, FredFredson, Gilles de Rais, Zichao
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0