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Old 22-09-11, 11:51 AM
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Default Was Marx Right?

From a Harvard Business Review blog.

Was Marx Right?

8:15 AM Wednesday September 7, 2011 | Comments (652)

In case you've been on Mars (or even just on vacation), here's a surprising idea that's been making the rounds lately: there might have been something to Marx's critiques of capitalism after all.

Now, before you leap into the intertubes, seize me by the arm, perform a citizens' arrest, and frog-march me into the nearest FBI office, exclaiming "See this suspicious looking brown guy? He's a card-carrying communist!!" please note: I'm, well, not. I'm a staunch believer in capitalism (hence, the title of my book.)

Yet, I do think — and after reading the dismal, dreary headlines every day, not to mention checking the value of your 401K, house, job, economy, society, and future lately, I'd bet you do too — that prosperity as we know it might be lazily circling the glowing inner rim of the burbling event horizon of a massive supergalactic black hole. And when it comes to doing much about it (wave hello to your new friend, "double-dip"), well, the status quo's pretty much out of options, out of ideas, and running out of time (hey, is that a Congressional "super-committee" being stalked by lobbyists I see? Who came up with this brain-melter of an idea?).

Hence, indulge me for a paragraph or two. Now, please note: This is a hugely divisive topic, and by "was Marx right?" I don't mean "Communism is the glorious future of humankind, my brothers in arms!! (And I am your leader — bow!!)". For, of course, I think we've had plenty of compelling demonstrations that it wasn't. Rather, I mean: "Was there maybe a tiny mote of insight or two hidden in Marx's diagnoses of the maladies of industrial age capitalism?"

Let's take Marx's big critiques of industrial age capitalism, one by one (and with a grain of salt: since I'm far from a Marxist economist, it's entirely possible my quick, partial descriptions leave much to be desired).

Immiseration. Marx claimed that capitalism would immiserate workers: he meant that labor would be "exploited" — not just in a purely ethical sense, but in a narrower economic one: that real wages would fall, and working conditions would deteriorate. How was Marx doing on this score? I'd say middlingly: wages in many advanced economies — notably, the most purely capitalist in a financialized sense — have failed to keep pace with productivity; not for years, but for decades. (America's median wage has been stagnant for roughly 40 years.) In macro terms, labor's share of income has plummeted, while the lion's share of growth has accrued to those at the very top.

Crisis. As workers were paid less and less, capitalism would be prone to chronic, perpetual crises of overproduction — for they wouldn't have the means to purchase or invest in enough goods to keep the economy humming. As Marx put it, there was likely to be "poverty in the midst of plenty." How's Marx doing on this score? Not bad, I'd say: the last three decades have in fact been characterized by global crises of what you might crudely call overproduction (think: too little demand chasing too many disposable widgets, resulting in a massive global debt crisis, as vanishing middle classes took on more and more debt to compensate for stagnant real wages).

Stagnation. Here's Marx's most controversial — and most curious — prediction. That as economies stagnated, real rates of profit would fall. How does this one hold up? On first glance, it seems to have been totally discredited: corporate profits have broken through the roof and into the stratosphere. But think about it again, in economic terms: Marx's prediction concerned "real profit," not just the mystery-meat numbers served up by beancounters, and chewed over with gusto by "analysts." When seen in those terms, Marx might be said to have been onto something: though corporations book nominal profits, I'd suggest a significant component of that "profit" is artificial, earned by transferring value, rather than creating it (just ask mega-banks, Big Energy, or Big Food). I've termed this "thin value" and Michael Porter has described it as a failure to create "shared value." Replace "declining real profit" with "shrinking real value" and it's analogous to what Tyler Cowen and I have called a Great Stagnation (though our casus belli for it differs significantly from Marx's).

Alienation. As workers were divorced from the output of their labor, Marx claimed, their sense of self-determination dwindled, alienating them from a sense of meaning, purpose, and fulfillment. How's Marx doing on this score? I'd say quite well: even the most self-proclaimed humane modern workplaces, for all their creature comforts, are bastions of bone-crushing tedium and soul-sucking mediocrity, filled with dreary meetings, dismal tasks, and pointless objectives that are well, just a little bit alienating. If sweating over the font in a PowerPoint deck for the mega-leveraged buyout of a line of designer diapers is the portrait of modern "work," then call me — and I'd bet most of you — alienated: disengaged, demoralized, unmotivated, uninspired, and about as fulfilled as a stoic Zen Master forced to watch an endless loop of Cowboys and Aliens.

False consciousness. According to Marx, one of the most pernicious aspects of industrial age capitalism was that the proles wouldn't even know they were being exploited — and might even celebrate the very factors behind their exploitation, in a kind of ideological Stockholm Syndrome that concealed and misrepresented the relations of power between classes. How's Marx doing on this score? You tell me. I'll merely point out: America's largest private employer is Walmart. America's second largest employer is McDonald's.

Commodity fetishism. A fetishized object is one which is more than a symbol: it's believed to have actually the power the symbol represents (like an idol, or a totem with magical properties). Marx claimed that under industrial age capitalism's rules, commodities became revered talismans, worshipped through transactional exchanges, imbued with mystical powers that give them inherent value — and obscuring the value of and in the very people who've worked labored over them in the first place. It's one of Marx's most subtle and nuanced concepts. Does it hold water? Again, I'll merely pointing to societies in furious pursuit of more, bigger, faster, cheaper, nastier, now, whether it's the retail temples of America's mega-malls, or London rioters stealing, not bread, but video games.

Marx's critiques seem, today, more resonant than we might have guessed. Now, here's what I'm not suggesting: that Marx's prescriptions (you know the score: overthrow, communalize, high-five, live happily ever after) for what to do about the maladies above were desirable, good, or just. History, I'd argue, suggests they were anything but. Yet nothing's black or white — and while Marx's prescriptions were poor, perhaps, if we're prepared to think subtly, it's worthwhile separating his diagnoses from them.

Because the truth might just be that the global economy is in historic, generational trouble, plagued by problems the orthodoxy didn't expect, didn't see coming, and doesn't quite know what to do with. Hence, it might just be that if we're going to turn this crisis upside down, we're going to have to think outside the big-box store, the McMansion, the dead-end McJob, the bailout, the super-bonus, and the share price.

The future of plenitude probably won't be Marxian — but it won't look like the present. And if we're going to trace the beginnings of better, more enduring, more authentic, more meaningful, fundamentally more humane paradigm for prosperity, perhaps it's worthwhile exploring — even when we don't agree with them — the critiques and prophecies of those who already challenged yesterday's.

Was Marx Right? - Umair Haque - Harvard Business Review
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Old 22-09-11, 12:36 PM
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Alienation. As workers were divorced from the output of their labor, Marx claimed, their sense of self-determination dwindled, alienating them from a sense of meaning, purpose, and fulfillment. How's Marx doing on this score? I'd say quite well: even the most self-proclaimed humane modern workplaces, for all their creature comforts, are bastions of bone-crushing tedium and soul-sucking mediocrity, filled with dreary meetings, dismal tasks, and pointless objectives that are well, just a little bit alienating. If sweating over the font in a PowerPoint deck for the mega-leveraged buyout of a line of designer diapers is the portrait of modern "work," then call me — and I'd bet most of you — alienated: disengaged, demoralized, unmotivated, uninspired, and about as fulfilled as a stoic Zen Master forced to watch an endless loop of Cowboys and Aliens.
Fuck...

Have you any idea how many people in the world would kill for that job and everything that goes with it? There are kids sewing footballs for 12p a day out there, and you have the temerity to whine that no one's feeling your pain at having to make a powerpoint presentation. Maybe, if your office is a dull place, it's because of bitchy, apathetic, self-obsessed people like you.

Douche.

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False consciousness. According to Marx, one of the most pernicious aspects of industrial age capitalism was that the proles wouldn't even know they were being exploited — and might even celebrate the very factors behind their exploitation, in a kind of ideological Stockholm Syndrome that concealed and misrepresented the relations of power between classes. How's Marx doing on this score? You tell me. I'll merely point out: America's largest private employer is Walmart. America's second largest employer is McDonald's.
So tell me, Mr. Enlightened-Genius, who would you rather that these ignorant flesh lumps be working for?

Quote:
Commodity fetishism. A fetishized object is one which is more than a symbol: it's believed to have actually the power the symbol represents (like an idol, or a totem with magical properties). Marx claimed that under industrial age capitalism's rules, commodities became revered talismans, worshipped through transactional exchanges, imbued with mystical powers that give them inherent value — and obscuring the value of and in the very people who've worked labored over them in the first place. It's one of Marx's most subtle and nuanced concepts. Does it hold water? Again, I'll merely pointing to societies in furious pursuit of more, bigger, faster, cheaper, nastier, now, whether it's the retail temples of America's mega-malls, or London rioters stealing, not bread, but video games.
Well I think we've got the point that you consider the working classes to be intellectual non-entities, but I'm pretty sure that even they don't believe that consumer goods have actual magical powers.

I'm probably being excessively harsh here, but if there's one thing that gets my goat it's self-indulgent, whiny superiority complexes on legs like this guy.
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Old 22-09-11, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Rather, I mean: "Was there maybe a tiny mote of insight or two hidden in Marx's diagnoses of the maladies of industrial age capitalism?"
Not very ambitious, that. Most economists would indeed argue that Marxist economic theories are interesting and have something going for them. Heck, I read a book by a politico-businessman with right wing/conservative contacts extolling Marx as the greatest economist of them all since he was the only one trying to explain "everything" in one fell swoop i.e. he was a philosopher, not just an economist.

Quote:
Immiseration. Marx claimed that capitalism would immiserate workers: he meant that labor would be "exploited" — not just in a purely ethical sense, but in a narrower economic one: that real wages would fall, and working conditions would deteriorate. How was Marx doing on this score? I'd say middlingly.
I'd say - Pretty darn good.

Quote:
Crisis. As workers were paid less and less, capitalism would be prone to chronic, perpetual crises of overproduction — for they wouldn't have the means to purchase or invest in enough goods to keep the economy humming. As Marx put it, there was likely to be "poverty in the midst of plenty." How's Marx doing on this score? Not bad, I'd say.
I'd say - Pretty darn good. We've seen a massive rise in the number and severity of crisis in the past 30 years.

Quote:
Stagnation. Here's Marx's most controversial — and most curious — prediction. That as economies stagnated, real rates of profit would fall. How does this one hold up? On first glance, it seems to have been totally discredited: corporate profits have broken through the roof and into the stratosphere. But think about it again, in economic terms: Marx's prediction concerned "real profit," not just the mystery-meat numbers served up by beancounters, and chewed over with gusto by "analysts." When seen in those terms, Marx might be said to have been onto something: though corporations book nominal profits, I'd suggest a significant component of that "profit" is artificial, earned by transferring value, rather than creating it (just ask mega-banks, Big Energy, or Big Food).
. So, basically, that prediction isn't working out and you just redefine the terms to suit your purpose. Shabby.

Furthermore, I think we can still see the "prediction" being validated - As the crisis deepend, profit margins might get slashed... until the next round of capacity destruction and lay-offs pushes the profit margins back up... Rinse and repeat.

Quote:
Alienation. As workers were divorced from the output of their labor, Marx claimed, their sense of self-determination dwindled, alienating them from a sense of meaning, purpose, and fulfillment. How's Marx doing on this score? I'd say quite well: even the most self-proclaimed humane modern workplaces, for all their creature comforts, are bastions of bone-crushing tedium and soul-sucking mediocrity, filled with dreary meetings, dismal tasks, and pointless objectives that are well, just a little bit alienating. If sweating over the font in a PowerPoint deck for the mega-leveraged buyout of a line of designer diapers is the portrait of modern "work," then call me — and I'd bet most of you — alienated: disengaged, demoralized, unmotivated, uninspired, and about as fulfilled as a stoic Zen Master forced to watch an endless loop of Cowboys and Aliens.
1- It's personal. Some people would love to be working on M&A deals.
2- You can do something else.
3- So what? None of the boring work on excel spreadsheet will ever have to be done in the bright future? I doubt it.

Quote:
False consciousness. According to Marx, one of the most pernicious aspects of industrial age capitalism was that the proles wouldn't even know they were being exploited — and might even celebrate the very factors behind their exploitation, in a kind of ideological Stockholm Syndrome that concealed and misrepresented the relations of power between classes. How's Marx doing on this score? You tell me. I'll merely point out: America's largest private employer is Walmart. America's second largest employer is McDonald's.
I'd have thought the fact that most poor white Americans are voting Republicans would be a better illustration. I don't get the point about Walmart and McDo in relation to false consciousness. But I think we are reaching Zichao's point of "if people are too stupid to know their own mind and self-interest, how can we trust them with a democratic system"?

Quote:
Commodity fetishism. A fetishized object is one which is more than a symbol: it's believed to have actually the power the symbol represents (like an idol, or a totem with magical properties). Marx claimed that under industrial age capitalism's rules, commodities became revered talismans, worshipped through transactional exchanges, imbued with mystical powers that give them inherent value...
If wearing the latest fashion and driving the biggest car gets you laid, is that proof that the idols and talismans actually really work? i.e. they have inherent magical properties?

Quote:
... or London rioters stealing, not bread, but video games.
... see the other article. Probably because starving ain't their real concern.


Quote:
Because the truth might just be that the global economy is in historic, generational trouble, plagued by problems the orthodoxy didn't expect, didn't see coming, and doesn't quite know what to do with.
. I repeat: Fisher, Keynes, Minsky, Krugman etc. And I could probably find more, if you push.

Hence, it might just be that if we're going to turn this crisis upside down, we're going to have to think outside the big-box store, the McMansion, the dead-end McJob, the bailout, the super-bonus, and the share price.

Quote:
And if we're going to trace the beginnings of better, more enduring, more authentic, more meaningful, fundamentally more humane paradigm for prosperity, perhaps it's worthwhile exploring — even when we don't agree with them — the critiques and prophecies of those who already challenged yesterday's.
For Goodness's sake. We know what to do. We need to bring back the 50s and 60s.
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Last edited by Gilles de Rais; 22-09-11 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 22-09-11, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Not very ambitious, that.
No, but then again, as he says, even meniotning it is liable to provike absurd over-reactions.

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. So, basically, that prediction isn't working out and you just redefine the terms to suit your purpose. Shabby.
The observation that real numbers are hard to get is not redfining the terms. See other extract I provided for you on the same point.

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2- You can do something else.
Only if a capitalist lets you. It's not your choice tomake.

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3- So what? None of the boring work on excel spreadsheet will ever have to be done in the bright future? I doubt it.
But its not made interesting by feeling personally enagged with it, becuase its someone else who benefits.

Quote:
I'd have thought the fact that most poor white Americans are voting Republicans would be a better illustration. I don't get the point about Walmart and McDo in relation to false consciousness. But I think we are reaching Zichao's point of "if people are too stupid to know their own mind and self-interest, how can we trust them with a democratic system"?
I assume he;s coming from the angle that people "choose" to work for walmart etc, which as you know I think is dubious. And I really think I've shot down Z's argument often enough not to need to repeat it again.

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If wearing the latest fashion and driving the biggest car gets you laid, is that proof that the idols and talismans actually really work? i.e. they have inherent magical properties?
Worship of Apple products would be a better example.

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... see the other article. Probably because starving ain't their real concern.
Dealt with.

Quote:
. I repeat: Fisher, Keynes, Minsky, Krugman etc. And I could probably find more, if you push.
None of whom were listened to, as I've pointed out before. This is no defence, in fact its even more damning, becuase now we're not talking about a dusty tome from the past being ignored, we're talking about people here and now being ignored. The orthodoxy made an avoidable error even as it was ebing pointed out to them. Doesn't that pretty conclusively show that the orthodoxy is driven by something other than reality?

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For Goodness's sake. We know what to do. We need to bring back the 50s and 60s.
Then why are seeing more and more austerity? "We" clearly don't know what to do, becuase we're doing the opposite of what you suggest.
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Old 22-09-11, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Have you any idea how many people in the world would kill for that job and everything that goes with it? There are kids sewing footballs for 12p a day out there, and you have the temerity to whine that no one's feeling your pain at having to make a powerpoint presentation. Maybe, if your office is a dull place, it's because of bitchy, apathetic, self-obsessed people like you.
Thats go nothing to do with it. That;s just trying to create a market in misery, a sort of sliding scale of righteousness according o how poor you are. Logically flawed and moralistic.

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Well I think we've got the point that you consider the working classes to be intellectual non-entities, but I'm pretty sure that even they don't believe that consumer goods have actual magical powers.
Absurd nonsense once again.

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I'm probably being excessively harsh here, but if there's one thing that gets my goat it's self-indulgent, whiny superiority complexes on legs like this guy.
No, you're just allowing your imagination to get in the way of your analysis.
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Old 22-09-11, 01:39 PM
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Thats go nothing to do with it. That;s just trying to create a market in misery, a sort of sliding scale of righteousness according o how poor you are. Logically flawed and moralistic.
Why doesn't this guy go off and work in a Foxconn plant in Shenzhen then? Could it be because his job is, in fact, pretty sweet?

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Absurd nonsense once again.
I know, but it's the OP that suggested it, not me.

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No, you're just allowing your imagination to get in the way of your analysis.
If you don't want people to hate you, don't bitch self-indulgently about your cushy job.
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Old 22-09-11, 01:45 PM
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I assume he;s coming from the angle that people "choose" to work for walmart etc, which as you know I think is dubious. And I really think I've shot down Z's argument often enough not to need to repeat it again.
Sure. So did Herbert Stein.

Consumer: A person who is capable of choosing a president but incapable of choosing a bicycle without help from a government agency.

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Worship of Apple products would be a better example.
They magically cause you to sleep with girls wearing clothes bought from Etsy.
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Old 22-09-11, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Why doesn't this guy go off and work in a Foxconn plant in Shenzhen then? Could it be because his job is, in fact, pretty sweet?
Why should he? Is that what would be required before he's allowed to have an opinion?

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I know, but it's the OP that suggested it, not me.
It did no such thing.

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If you don't want people to hate you, don't bitch self-indulgently about your cushy job.
He didn't ask for your pity. He just pointed out that it wasn't all fun and games.
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Old 22-09-11, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post

They magically cause you to sleep with girls wearing clothes bought from Etsy.
Apple creates religious ecstacy in fanboy brains | thinq_
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Old 22-09-11, 01:51 PM
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Why should he? Is that what would be required before he's allowed to have an opinion?
Oh he's allowed an opinion, and I'm allowed to think it's a load of masturbatory horseshit.

"Boohooo! Society's going to collapse because I was made to do a Powerpoint presentation! Waaaah!"

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It did no such thing.
imbued with mystical powers that give them inherent value

When I buy a tv it's just because I want to watch it. Apparently he buys it for its mystical powers.

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He didn't ask for your pity. He just pointed out that it wasn't all fun and games.
You only get out of life what you put into it.

Just like the other thread about being happy with what you've got.
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