TheNewTopical.com - current events, politics, culture, ethics, economics discussion forum  

Go Back   TheNewTopical.com - current events, politics, culture, ethics, economics discussion forum » Main Forum » The Principle of the Thing

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 31-05-11, 08:22 PM
Zichao's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,038
Default The mind’s I

Normally when people start on the "But neuroscience proves that we're all total morons! We shall have to revolutionise the whole of society!" I reply from a purely practical point of view (Why? What have you got against society? If you intend to yank out the foundation of all our civil and political rights what are you going to replace it with? It's usually some form of cloying, nannyish "empathy", and I want none of that.) This does a good job of demolishing the arguments on a metaphysical level.

Quote:
The quasi-religious zeal with which certain popularising neuroscientists claim that man is no different, essentially, from the animals, and that consciousness is but an epiphenomenon, strikes me as distinctly odd. The popularisers seem to take a sado-masochistic delight in it, in the way that some people get a thrill from envisaging the end of the world. They also seem to imply that we now understand almost everything about ourselves, apart from a few odd details to be filled in by ever-more-sophisticated scanners. In other words, man has finally come to understand himself.

Here is an addition to the fast-growing genre of books that claim scientific authority for the idea that we are, at base, not much different from the bacteria. Of course, this idea depends on what we consider important, and importance is a non-natural quality. Over and over again, the author stresses the insignificance of self-consciousness and self-reflexivity. He is both right and wrong to do so. It is perfectly true that an awful lot goes on in our nervous system (and elsewhere in our bodies) of which we are unaware; it could hardly be otherwise. But it is also true that a plug is only a tiny proportion of a bath’s mass or volume. This does not make it unimportant, at least for a bath’s most obvious functions.

Professor Eagleman explains scientific ideas with exemplary clarity. His style is lucid; his metaphysics is crude. He reminds me rather of Bazarov in Fathers and Sons, or of the mid-19th century physiologist Jacob Moleschott, who said that ‘the brain secretes thought as the liver secretes bile.’

He starts with an unfortunate demonstration that consciousness is not all it is cracked up to be. He relays the story of Coleridge’s opium dream from which, unbidden and unshaped by conscious thought, the poem ‘Kubla Khan’ emerged. This shows us that highly complex artistic creation can well up in us without the necessity on our part to think, a possibility that no doubt gives hope to us all. Unfortunately, it is almost certain that Coleridge was not entirely truthful about the origin of his poem; it was in fact highly reworked. But even if his account were true, it would not prove what the author thinks it proves; only that consciousness is not always necessary to creation, not that it never is.

He is at his best when describing the pitfalls of experience as a guide to the nature of reality, not least about our own mental states. He describes many fascinating experiments. But these too do not prove what he wants them to prove. Hume argued, I think correctly, that you cannot talk of the totality of existence in the same way as you talk of particular objects that exist. In like fashion, you cannot, without falling into a paradox, use experience to demonstrate that all experience is untrustworthy.

Having established to his own satisfaction that consciousness is little more than the icing on the neurophysiological cake (although for most of us the cake would not be worth having without it), he tackles the question of legal responsibility. He regards the law as hopelessly out of date in its attempts to distinguish between those, the majority, who may be held to account, and those, the minority, who may not. He thinks that the neurosciences should be used to determine how criminals should be treated, grossly overestimating their explanatory predictive power; he believes in an Erewhonian world in which criminals are regarded, ex officio as it were, as ill. For some reason, neuroscientists seem to think that the acts of criminals are determined, but those of judges and juries are not. There is a central puzzle as to why someone who thinks that consciousness is so unimportant should try to persuade anyone of anything.


In his discussion of the quasi-medical treatment of criminals, he draws the line at psychosurgery because such surgery infringes peoples ‘neural rights.’ In what part of the purely physical universe do neural rights exist? How does one go about discovering them? He objects to psycho- surgery (whose history is in any case somewhat more nuanced than he will allow) because it alters the brain; but, ex hypothesi, anything that can be done to anybody alters the brain, and so brain alteration cannot be a criterion of inadmissibility. He also believes in the powers of Prozac (much exaggerated) with a fervour that makes belief in miracle-working Virgins seem like the last word in evidence-based medicine.

Modern neurosciences, he tells us, complete the Copernican and Darwinian revolutions. The earth is no longer the centre of the universe, and man is no longer the paragon of animals. ‘A mere 400 years after our fall from the center of the universe’, he tells us confidently, ‘we have experienced the fall from the center of ourselves’.

But the whole argument of his book is that there is no ‘we’ to fall, because there is no ‘I’; there has never been an I, it is an impossibility that there should have been. But if we are capable of falling from the centre of ourselves, we must exist; therefore there is no metaphysical need for us to deny our own existence.

This book is valuable as an example of the technical ingenuity of modern neuroscience, combined with its Moleschottian overconfidence. The central mysteries of human existence remain untouched by it.
Incognito: The Secret Lives of the Brain | David Eagleman | Review by The Spectator
__________________
Standard disclaimer: the disgusting statements contained in this post are the views of the poster, and unless specified do not represent the views of the moderators or the site's owners.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-11, 10:52 AM
Gilles de Rais's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,639
Default

Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Normally when people start on the "But neuroscience proves that we're all total morons! We shall have to revolutionise the whole of society!" I reply from a purely practical point of view. Why? What have you got against society?
Because, if it is sub-optimal, then it can be improved? Improvement is good...

Quote:
If you intend to yank out the foundation of all our civil and political rights what are you going to replace it with?
Whatever works better?

Quote:
It's usually some form of cloying, nannyish "empathy", and I want none of that.
Democracy's a bitch. OTOH, apart from being pissed off for being lectured at, I don't get your opposition. It's not like you're coerced into anything. If anything, the way I understand it, you're supposed to be less coerced as lower level of coercion than before are needed to get cooperation.

Quote:
The quasi-religious zeal with which certain popularising neuroscientists claim (...) that consciousness is but an epiphenomenon,strikes me as distinctly odd.
Yeah, I agree with that. Primitively put (i.e. my level of reasoning), if there is no "I" then who's typing these words?

Quote:
Over and over again, the author stresses the insignificance of self-consciousness and self-reflexivity. He is both right and wrong to do so. It is perfectly true that an awful lot goes on in our nervous system (and elsewhere in our bodies) of which we are unaware; it could hardly be otherwise. But it is also true that a plug is only a tiny proportion of a bath’s mass or volume. This does not make it unimportant, at least for a bath’s most obvious functions.
A bit disingenious. The important point is that self-consciousness has less impact than we think on our thinking and actions. That's not the same as, say, my heart beating without me having to think about it.
__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.

Last edited by Gilles de Rais; 01-06-11 at 11:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-11, 11:19 AM
Gilles de Rais's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,639
Default

Quote:
Having established to his own satisfaction that consciousness is little more than the icing on the neurophysiological cake (although for most of us the cake would not be worth having without it).
Agreed again.

Quote:
he tackles the question of legal responsibility. He regards the law as hopelessly out of date in its attempts to distinguish between those, the majority, who may be held to account, and those, the minority, who may not.
It's probably/possibly better than using psychological tests and psychologists to make that disctinction.

Quote:
He thinks that the neurosciences should be used to determine how criminals should be treated, grossly overestimating their explanatory predictive power; he believes in an Erewhonian world in which criminals are regarded, ex officio as it were, as ill.
If he admits the majority are to be held responsible for their acts, surely, he is not considering all criminals as ill? But that's the problem with mental illness - How do you know for sure? I contend that someone who enjoy eating people after having raped and tortured them is somehow sick. I can't really put my finger on why but I suspect it's the gratuitious aspect of it. While murdering your auntie in order to inherit is far more rational/understandable.

Quote:
In his discussion of the quasi-medical treatment of criminals, he draws the line at psychosurgery because such surgery infringes peoples ‘neural rights.’ (...) He also believes in the powers of Prozac (much exaggerated) with [...] fervour.
I'd have to read the book but this does seem contradictory - And we do medicate the criminally insane or even just the problems-prone mentally handicapped...

Quote:
But the whole argument of his book is that there is no ‘we’ to fall, because there is no ‘I’; there has never been an I, it is an impossibility that there should have been. But if we are capable of falling from the centre of ourselves, we must exist; therefore there is no metaphysical need for us to deny our own existence.
Agreed again. But, as I said, I think neurosciences' interest in these Nudge theories is simply to show that most of what we think is not as rationally determined as we think - Not unless we train ourselves for it.
__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.

Last edited by Gilles de Rais; 01-06-11 at 11:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-11, 06:17 PM
contracycle's Avatar
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,150
Default

Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Normally when people start on the "But neuroscience proves that we're all total morons! We shall have to revolutionise the whole of society!"
An overstatment. This is the first I've seen of anyone actually suggesting anything like that. So this is rather something you seem to assume is implicit in realising the limits of certainty. But of course, people were just as uncertain in the past, and the systems we have inherited were devloped by uncertain people for uncertain people, so they are likely pretty neatly adapted to our needs.

Some of this article is interesting, some of it is really just a demonstration of the difficulty we have in expressing these topics in human language. What kind of sophistry is it say that consciousness is "worth having"? It just exists, and whats more, we have no more control over it than we have over the fact that millions of years of evolution has made us find the taste of food pleasant. But that doesn't make it real, any more than the taste of a burger and chips is real; presumably a cow is similarly evolved to find grass absolutely delicious.

What's more, I don't even think the implications lead to a state of self-perception that is particularly novel; I think it's basically just what Confucious figured out, and is therefore in fact very old.

"When you know a thing, to hold that you know it, and when you do not know a thing, to allow that you do not know it - this is knowledge."
Reply With Quote
Reply


(View-All Members who have read this thread : 4
contracycle, Gilles de Rais, LiberalNation, Zichao
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0