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Old 10-04-11, 04:41 PM
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Default Liberté, égalité, fraternité – unless, of course, you would like to wear a burqa

Liberté, égalité, fraternité – unless, of course, you would like to wear a burqa

France's absurd ban on traditional Islamic dress strikes at the very freedoms Europeans should cherish


o Viv Groskop
o The Observer, Sunday 10 April 2011


There was a time when Shazia Mirza, stand-up comic and British Asian Muslim, performed as a character who wore a hijab. She doesn't now. But she still has a good line on the full-body veil. "All my cousins in France wear the burqa. Which is great. Because they all use the same bus pass."

Not any more. Tomorrow, France launches a full-scale ban. For Sarkozy and his friends, the burqa is no joke. It's dangerous and illegal. Women wearing the burqa and the niqab (the more common facial veil) will not exactly be arrested on sight. But if they wear a veil over their face in a public place, anyone can ask them to uncover their face – or leave. Not quite stop and search. Just stop and unmask. If a woman refuses to co-operate, citizens are advised to call the police. The fine is €150.

Does this sound a little unfriendly to you? If so, be very worried. Because this trend is spreading. A ban is already in operation in Belgium and under discussion in Canada, Denmark and Spain. It is likely to become law in the Netherlands this year or next. There have been calls in Sweden for the niqab to be prohibited in schools and universities.

A de facto ban already exists in Italy (where a 1975 antiterrorism law forbids the covering of the face) and Berlusconi's party has drafted a new, more specific ruling. Last year, a Tunisian woman was fined €500 for wearing a burqa in Italy's Piedmont region.

What a lot of fuss over a piece of cloth. And we haven't seen the last of this debate in the UK. Last year, Conservative MP Philip Hollobone introduced a private members' bill proposing a ban. Its supporters include Nigel Farage of Ukip and, more surprisingly, Saira Khan, the entrepreneur and one-time Apprentice contestant, a British Muslim. They all parrot the French argument. Khan says a ban is "not racist, it's common sense". They claim the veil is a symbol of a "divided Britain", that it's a potential security threat and oppressive to women.

But the women's rights defence is a ridiculous excuse for something very close to racism. As Ed Balls, then schools secretary, put it last year: "I wouldn't want to be part of a religion myself where we said to women and girls, 'You have to wear a veil.' But I also would not want to be in the kind of society where people were told how to dress when they walked down the streets."

In France, the feminist campaigning group Ni Putes Ni Soumises has argued that some niqab wearers will welcome tomorrow's ban because they wear the facial veil unwillingly, at the instigation of their husbands. Perhaps. But in greater numbers women are speaking out about having made their own decision. As Chrystelle Khedrouche, a 36-year-old French-born Muslim convert, interviewed by the BBC's Gavin Hewitt, puts it: "The French like the idea of everyone being of the same mould and that mould must be ideal. I have made the choice not to be unveiled… so to force me to unveil – that's not freedom."

Anti-burqa campaigners all over Europe suggest that this is an issue of personal safety and basic trust. In reality, it's just a form of Islamophobia. In France, the ban already feels unworkable, fatally divisive and, frankly, pathetic. Even the law itself is a strange beast, which goes by the catchy name of The Bill Prohibiting Facial Dissimulation in a Public Place. Note, no reference to Islam.

If the French were not so cowardly – and were being transparent about what they are doing – they would actually outlaw the burqa and the niqab by name, instead of coyly banning "the covering of the face". Presumably, it's now against the law in France to attend a fancy dress party dressed as Zorro or Catwoman. Because if there's one rule for one set of people who cover their face, that same rule should surely apply to anyone whose face is not immediately visible. Non?

Indeed, if the French are going to do this, let's hope they do it properly. Le Figaro has already expressed distress that it is technically against the law to wear a ski mask in a public place. Bad news for the black run at Val d'Isčre. Aren't there some rampant beards that might sprout dangerously in the direction of facial dissimulation? What happens if you make your living as Papa Noel at Nouvelles Galeries' answer to Santa's grotto?

It's when you realise this is the sort of idiocy in play that this law falls apart. It's not a public safety issue or even a misguided attempt to liberate oppressed women. It's a law designed to appeal to anti-immigration sentiment and, in France in particular, to stake a claim on the (resurgent) Front National's territory. Over here, the fact that Ukip shouts the loudest about this subject gives you some idea of the sort of company you would be keeping.

The fact is that in all these countries the niqab is worn by such a minority that this feels like a witch hunt. In Belgium, where the ban is operational, it is estimated there are 30 women who wear it. Yes, you read that correctly: 30. You might as well just visit their house and just ask them to leave the country. Although, why do that when you can introduce legislation that will make their lives a misery and/or make them prisoners in their own homes?

Even in France, the number is thought to be fewer than 2,000. But still the authorities have printed 100,000 posters and 400,000 leaflets with the smug slogan: "The republic lives with its face uncovered." This a PR exercise that has nothing to do with the veil and everything to do with rallying nationalistic sentiment.

Will it work? Not necessarily. On YouTube, the anti-ban "Niqabitch" video ("bitches in niqabs") has gone viral again. This footage first appeared last year. It shows two women wearing the niqab with mini-shorts and high heels, strutting the streets of Paris to the Piaf-like strains of Colette Renard purring Les Nuits d'Une Demoiselle. They pose for mobile phone photos as cabbies toot their horns appreciatively. "We need more of this kind of thing," one shouts. A policewoman says: "I love your outfit. Can I take a picture?" From tomorrow, she'll have to ask them to uncover their faces or take them to the nearest magistrate.

Jean-Francois Copé, leader of Sarkozy's UMP party, says the ban has the support of 74% of the population. But if you read the comment threads on French news websites, France is divided. Granted, many support the ban. As one commentator writes: "This is France. Live by French laws." But equal numbers voice the idea that this ban violates "the basic French principle of liberty".

Exactement. Because liberty means allowing others to get on with their lives, even if you don't approve of their wardrobe choices. In the meantime, anyone planning a trip to the Alps might want to select their winter headgear very carefully.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité ? unless, of course, you would like to wear a burqa | Viv Groskop | Comment is free | The Observer
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Old 10-04-11, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Does this sound a little unfriendly to you?
I think 'unfriendly' is exactly what it's aiming for... And, to be honest, I am divided myself. Tolerance is a good thing but does not extend to tolerating intolerance as you yourself said often enough when it comes to Christian more virulent anti-sciences/anti-gay/anti-abortion campaigns...

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What a lot of fuss over a piece of cloth.
Dishonest. It's not just a piece of cloth, is it? Neither for them nor for us.

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As Ed Balls, then schools secretary, put it last year: "I wouldn't want to be part of a religion myself where we said to women and girls, 'You have to wear a veil.' But I also would not want to be in the kind of society where people were told how to dress when they walked down the streets."
"I wouldn't have slaves myself. But I wouldn't want to be in the kind of society that denies slaves to others"...

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In France, the feminist campaigning group Ni Putes Ni Soumises has argued that some niqab wearers will welcome tomorrow's ban because they wear the facial veil unwillingly, at the instigation of their husbands. Perhaps. But in greater numbers women are speaking out about having made their own decision.
Could it be because the ones who wear it out of fear can't actually speak up... If they could, they wouldn't wear it. And converts are a bit of a joke in any case. They don't have the cultural background, just the religion/faith - which isn't the same thing.

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Le Figaro has already expressed distress that it is technically against the law to wear a ski mask in a public place.
Fuck. I do hope it's against the rules to wear a ski mask in a public place. If I were in a bank or jewelry or even petrol station and some guys were wandering with ski masks, I'd be fucking nervous... The argument about Val D'Isere is pure bad faith. On ski slopes, a ski mask is okay. Even in the station boutiques, it'd be OTT and not the done thing. I lived in the Alps. No one wear a ski mask anywhere but on ski slopes...

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It's a law designed to appeal to anti-immigration sentiment and, in France in particular, to stake a claim on the (resurgent) Front National's territory.
Yes. But, then again, I have to say that I am not keen on that kind of Islam-practitioners being welcome in France. Even if they are French. Just as I don't think American-style hard core aggressive evangelism should be made feel welcome either. And it isn't.

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Will it work? Not necessarily. On YouTube, the anti-ban "Niqabitch" video ("bitches in niqabs") has gone viral again. This footage first appeared last year. It shows two women wearing the niqab with mini-shorts and high heels, strutting the streets of Paris to the Piaf-like strains of Colette Renard purring Les Nuits d'Une Demoiselle.
We had a thread on this. This has nothing to do with niqab anyhow.

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Because liberty means allowing others to get on with their lives, even if you don't approve of their wardrobe choices.
Not just a wardrobe choice, is it?

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In the meantime, anyone planning a trip to the Alps might want to select their winter headgear very carefully.
Yep. Common sense is such a hard thing to have...
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Old 10-04-11, 06:22 PM
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This whole issue is complex because it hits on two sides of the same coin. One side is the human rights implications of forcing clothing styles on people for ideological or social reasons. The other side is the right to choose what to wear for yourself.

If this law was about making the wearing of single piece bathing suits by women illegal it would be laughed off the agenda in a flash.

In moderate Arab countries, like Morocco for example, you see women wearing everything from full black, face screened Burqas to bikini tops and shorts. Nobody makes a big deal out of it either way.

The security issues are a different thing. The ability of appropriate legal authority to identify a person is important and should be supported. Extending that issue to banning this clothing choice/style entirely is just making the teapot tempest worse.

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Old 10-04-11, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
"I wouldn't have slaves myself. But I wouldn't want to be in the kind of society that denies slaves to others"...
You were talking about dishonesty?

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The argument about Val D'Isere is pure bad faith. On ski slopes, a ski mask is okay.
Clearly not. It's illegal now.

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Yep. Common sense is such a hard thing to have...
That much is clearly evident in this illiberal law. Or does common sense mean "one law for white people and another for Arabs" these days?
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Old 11-04-11, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
You were talking about dishonesty?
That's pushing things to an extreme maybe but not intellectually dishonest. You're the one arguing in feminist threads about the tribal nature of women subjucation & the religious excuses for doing so.

There's nothing we can do or should do about things like that happening in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia (Afghanistan being a moot point). To each their own. But no friggin way should we tolerate that shit in France.

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Clearly not. It's illegal now.
... but I am pretty sure the law won't be enforced there. Not that ski masks are even that common on slopes...

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That much is clearly evident in this illiberal law.
I'll agree it's illiberal, which is why I find siding with it quite jarring.

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Or does common sense mean "one law for white people and another for Arabs" these days?
Pretty much. We don't want Arabs' traditions in France. OTOH, 'white' ain't the best term. I'd be against the hard core Jewish anti-women stuff or the old Mormon stuff or the hard core US evangelical stuff. None of these traditions are French. None of them have anything to recommend them. Why the hell should we let them develop and prosper in our backyard?
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Old 11-04-11, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by FredFredson View Post
In moderate Arab countries, like Morocco for example, you see women wearing everything from full black, face screened Burqas to bikini tops and shorts. Nobody makes a big deal out of it either way.
I think you'll find out that they do.

One fear there was about these democratic movements popping up across the area was that it would result in more and more constrains on women's rights, however little they might still have...
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Old 11-04-11, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
You're the one arguing in feminist threads about the tribal nature of women subjucation & the religious excuses for doing so.
Of course. That doesn't give me the right to tell women what they can wear.

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To each their own. But no friggin way should we tolerate that shit in France.
Which is a ridiculous argument considering what a tiny minority it is. Furthermore, even if your argument about coercion was simplistically taken as read, then surely you're punishing the wrong people? You're going to be prosecuting and fining the very women whom you claim are being coerced, which makes it just another case of blaiming the victim. Surely if the French government meant what it said it should be prosecuting the men who do the coercing, right?

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... but I am pretty sure the law won't be enforced there. Not that ski masks are even that common on slopes...
Which only confirms that it is simply a racist law. There is no more to it than that.

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Pretty much. We don't want Arabs' traditions in France.
Then France is not a simply not a modern democracy. I's some sort of ethnic purist throwback.

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OTOH, 'white' ain't the best term. I'd be against the hard core Jewish anti-women stuff or the old Mormon stuff or the hard core US evangelical stuff. None of these traditions are French. None of them have anything to recommend them. Why the hell should we let them develop and prosper in our backyard?
Really? This is Grace Kelly at her wedding to Prince Rainier III of Monaco:


You'll note that she has covered her face with a veil. I could reference the use of veils in mourning as well. It's ludicrous to claim that this has no precedent in French culture.

But as you admit, it;s not really likely that the French authorities will act in these cases, not least becuase they are a dopmestic tradition. So this "law" is really just a nasty bit of racist persecution, which is going to oblige the police and the courts to "read between the lines" and enforce it specifically as a targetted, racist measure.
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Old 12-04-11, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Of course. That doesn't give me the right to tell women what they can wear.
I thought you were all for forcing people to be free?

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Which is a ridiculous argument considering what a tiny minority it is.
OK so that's a very good point and why I think this is the wrong law in a way. It also creates an amalgame between what I don't want to see in France and what right-wing racists want to exclude/annoy... I got no problems with French of Arab origins or indeed with most muslim traditions. But I do have a problem with some of the more extreme (extreme with regards to 'normal' french societal norms) traditions adopted by some muslims and I do not wish to see either the tradition or its practitioners in France.

The reason I don't like this law is because, as you point out, the problem is minor and deliberately used to make the whole lot of French-Arab uncomfortable. Something that does make me uncomfortable. Maybe we should have just used administrative powers to thrown out all people wearing a burqa and their immediate family?

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Furthermore, even if your argument about coercion was simplistically taken as read, then surely you're punishing the wrong people? You're going to be prosecuting and fining the very women whom you claim are being coerced, which makes it just another case of blaiming the victim. Surely if the French government meant what it said it should be prosecuting the men who do the coercing, right?
If these women are coerced, in any case, they won't have an independent income and/or their spending will be controlled by their coercers hence, in any case, it affects the budget of the offenders...

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Which only confirms that it is simply a racist law. There is no more to it than that.
Racism is about race. Here, it is about a particular religious practice/dogma, namely that women are inferior beings and ought to be made to suffer for being women.

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Then France is simply not a modern democracy. I's some sort of ethnic purist throwback.
Well, within reason, I do want to keep France "pure". I simply don't see skin colour as the major aspect of that but attitudes certainly matter.


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Really? This is Grace Kelly at her wedding to Prince Rainier III of Monaco. You'll note that she has covered her face with a veil. I could reference the use of veils in mourning as well. It's ludicrous to claim that this has no precedent in French culture.
And this is Grace Kelly in a swimsuit:



Show me what the burqa wearers take to go swiming and we'll talk again.

To compare the marriage veil or the mourning crepe to a burqa is a bad joke. You're actually right in the sense that all these have their source in monotheistic religions but they are simply not comparable from a practical point of view.

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But as you admit, it;s not really likely that the French authorities will act in these cases, not least becuase they are a dopmestic tradition. So this "law" is really just a nasty bit of racist persecution, which is going to oblige the police and the courts to "read between the lines" and enforce it specifically as a targetted, racist measure.
Yeah, there's no denying that. It was also the same thing with veils in schools - It ended up creating issues with the tiny Sikh community because, while the law was clearly about targeting the muslim veil, it wanted to pretend not to be 'racist' and so targeted all religious headgears...
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Old 12-04-11, 12:27 PM
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The whole thing is retarded: "It's terrible that these men are threatening you and telling you what to wear! We'll solve it by threatening you and telling you what to wear!"

If they can't decide how to dress by themselves they certainly shouldn't be allowed to vote.
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Old 12-04-11, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
The whole thing is retarded: "It's terrible that these men are threatening you and telling you what to wear! We'll solve it by threatening you and telling you what to wear!"
Well, so as I said, the law isn't particularly smart. But the general "there are customs which have no place in France" feeling, I totally agree with.
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