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Scientology attempts to ban picketers due to their HIV status. Los Angeles, CA (1-12-09) - In a shocking new tactic attempting to ban peaceful protesters from picketing the Scientology compound known as "Gold Base" near Hemet, CA, Scientology lawyers have obtained medical information regarding two protesters, and are using their HIV positive status in an attempt to prevent them from picketing at the location. Worldwide pickets against Scientology have surged in the last year, and Scientology has been fighting to stop them, especially near the Hemet compound. Scientology has used tactics ranging from physical attacks , false reports to police , and the emission of an estimated 110db organ note from loudspeakers in an attempt to drown out the protesters' chants. The latest tactics, however, are downright sickening, illegal, and an insult to members of the LGBT community and HIV patients worldwide. Scientology is lobbying for the passage of a county-wide ordinance restricting protesting at "Gold Base". Scientology considers the presence of the two HIV+ men to be a threat to the well-being of the alleged 500 "church workers" at the Base, and is seeking to restrict protests in a move that may constitute an restriction on 1st Amendment rights of activists in Hemet.

For many many years and to this very day the 'church' of scientology has be trying to crush the freedoms of people worldwide, and it has all gone largly un-reported.

The fact of the mater is that the "church" of Scientology is not a church at all, it uses the mask of religion to cover it's criminal activities; Fraud, theft, blackmail ect.
We can not just stand by, watching this religion-for-profit cult ruin lives and and take the money of the lives it ruins.
The 'church' of scientology is merely a front, by using it's status as a church it has been able to aquire tax-exempt status in many countries. Though some, like France and Germany, have started to see the true face of Scientology, and are investegating them as we speak.

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If a "church" is defined as a body of people sharing metaphysical beliefs unsupported by evidence, then Scientology is a church, as is the Westboro Baptist Church, like it or not.

The City of Rockdale in the Sydney metropolitan area found that playing songs of Barry Manilow over loudspeakers was an effective way of encouraging crowds of young people to disperse. It might work better than a sustained organ note.

I have no personal sympathy with Scientology, its aims or its practices but accusations of criminal activities don't seem to hold up, at least in Germany:

Germany abandons bid to ban Scientology

Michael Fischer, Potsdam, Germany
November 23, 2008

GERMANY is dropping its pursuit of a ban on Scientology after finding insufficient evidence of illegal activity.

Domestic intelligence services will continue to monitor the group, officials said.

The German branch of the Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology has been under observation by domestic intelligence services for more than a decade.

Top security officials asked state governments in December to begin determining whether they had sufficient grounds to seek a ban.

Germany has said it considers Scientology to be in conflict with the principles of the nation's constitution, calling it less a church than a business that uses coercion to take advantage of vulnerable people.

A report on extremism last year charged that Scientology "seeks to limit or rescind basic and human rights, such as the right to develop one's personality and the right to be treated equally".

"This organisation pursues goals - through its writings, its concept and its disrespect for minorities - that we cannot tolerate and that we consider in violation of the constitution. But they put very little of this into practice," Erhart Koerting, Berlin's top security official, told reporters on Friday.

"The appraisal of the Government at the moment is that (Scientology) is a lousy organisation, but it is not an organisation that we have to take a hammer to."

Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and his counterparts from Germany's 16 states agreed on Friday that there was not enough proof to justify opening proceedings for such a ban but domestic intelligence services would continue to monitor Scientology's activities.

"Before we open preliminary proceedings (leading to a ban), we need concrete evidence of unconstitutional activity," said August Hanning, a Schaeuble deputy. "The security agencies are predominantly of the opinion that there is not sufficient evidence of this."

The Church of Scientology welcomed the ministers' decision to stop seeking a ban, describing it as the "only one possible".

"There never was a legal basis to open such proceedings," said Sabine Weber, a spokeswoman for Scientology in Germany.

Scientology called on officials to stop monitoring it, and what it called "the discrimination and the harassment that go along with it".

The Church of Scientology has long battled to end the surveillance, saying it is an abuse of freedom of religion, and the US State Department regularly criticises Germany for the practice in its annual human rights report.

Scientology was founded in 1954 by the late science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard. It was established in Germany in 1970 and officials estimate it has between 5000 and 6000 members there.

According to the 2007 annual report of the German agency that tracks extremism, Scientology "seeks to reduce or deny basic constitutional and human rights, such as the right to human dignity, the right to self-fulfilment and the right to equal treatment".

Picketing has a long history as an effective tactic in industrial relations disputes, but is simply an in interference with civil rights in my view when it is extended to reproductive health clinics, animal research laboratories, dodgy churches or funerals of US servicemen.

Well describe church however you please, they are a cult. Using the mask of religion, to generate profit. There are many steps which must be taken in order to break down this criminal organisation. For starters it must be put on a level playing field with every other religion.

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"Since 1993, the Church of Scientology has enjoyed favored religious status in violation of the First Amendment. Anonymous aims to draw attention to this violation of our Bill of Rights, and to initiate congressional hearings in to their validity," said David Mudkip, an American member of Anonymous. "The Church of Scientology's agreement with the IRS grants the organization tax-exempt religious education, a provision that no other religion in the United States enjoys, including widespread faiths such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam. This makes the Church of Scientology a favored religion, a severe violation of the United States Constitution."

A year after project Chanology was announced, to unmask Scientology many advances have been made ti show them for who they really are;

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Worldwide – The internet-based collective known as Anonymous will mark their one year anniversary of peaceful protests against the Church of Scientology this February with global protests spanning several weekends. Anonymous has raised global public awareness of the Church of Scientology's scams and scandals over the last twelve months. Highlights from the last twelve months include: 1) Court rejects Clearwater injunction in early March [1]. The Scientology organisation attempted to fabricate enough threats against themselves to convince a court in Clearwater, Florida (the Scientology "Mecca") to grant an injunction against peaceful Anonymous protests[2]. 2) Scientology under investigation worldwide. Raided by the Belgian authorities [3]. Ordered to stand trial for fraud in France [4]. In Kazakhstan, authorities are seeking to have the local chapter removed as the Church of Scientology "runs counter to principles of national security of the Republic of Kazakhstan, as it is aimed at undermining Kazakh nation's health through inflicting harm on people's psychic and physical health" [5]. 3) Scientology front groups exposed. Leaked documents [6] have exposed the aims and intentions of the many Scientology front groups. These documents prove that despite the groups' insisting that the methods are secular, they are in fact founded upon the Scientology preudo-religious teachings. These front groups include: Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR, anti-psychiatry wing of Scientology) [7]; Narconon (drug rehab program based on Scientology, not related to Narcotics Anonymous) [8]; Study Technology (Hubbard’s learning methodologies promoted by Applied Scholastics and other such groups) [9]; World Institute of Scientology Enterprises (WISE) [10] and Second Chance/Criminon [11] among others. 4) German government extend official invitation to Anonymous. German authorities organised a conference last September in Hamburg entitled “What is Scientology?” and extended an official invitation to Anonymous to attend. Scientology representative Tommy Davis was denied access on the grounds that “If you discuss the dangers of illegal drugs, you do not invite the drug dealer to speak on stage” [12]. Speeches given at this conference are available online [13]. This year has seen much headway in the fight against the Scientology enterprise. Many of their internal documents and policies have been leaked [14], many media organisations have lost their fear of reporting on Scientology [15], critical documentaries have achieved worldwide circulation [16], and lawsuits have been filed that will further expose the enterprise [17]. The global release of John Duignan’s book ‘The Complex: An Insider Exposes the Covert World of the Church of Scientology’ [18], which is still blocked from sale in the UK due to Scientology's efforts[19], has served to raise awareness about Scientology in the UK, as well as any country whose citizens heard about this censorship [20]. What a difference a year makes. Scientology operatives still continue to paint Anonymous in a negative light as a means of distracting attention from Scientology operations and attempting to discredit those who bring truth to the issues at hand. It just isn’t working. It has been some twelve months – time to finish what was started. About Anonymous: Anonymous is a grassroots collective comprised of ordinary people from all walks of life, from former Scientologists and long-time cult activists, to college students and corporate professionals, all united in recognition of the malign nature of the 'Church' of Scientology, the danger it poses to society, and the necessity of action. We are Anonymous. We are legion. We do not forgive, We do not forget. Expect us. For more information visit: http://www.whyweprotest.net http://forums.whyweprotest.net http://library.endthecult.com http://anonstillalive.com References: [1] Media coverage of the court’s decision: http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/...icle416511.ece [2] Video analysis showing that Scientology manufactured the bomb threat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6pdGhHvwu8 [3] Media coverage of the Belgian authorities raid: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Authorit...of_Scientology [4] Media coverage of the France trial: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...rance.religion [5] Media coverage of the Kazakhstan case: http://www.interfax.com/3/468595/news.aspx [6] Leaked Scientology document exposing their front groups: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Talk:The_C...of_Scientology [7] Media coverage of the build up to the CCHR event held June 2008: http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer...story66081.asp [8] Media coverage exposing plans to use Narconon to infiltrate Irish schools: http://anoneire.ning.com/profiles/bl...ys-scientology [9] Extensive analysis exposing Study Technology as poorly veiled Scientology: http://www.studytech.org/study_tech.php [10] WISE company Diskeeper is being sued for forcing Scientology teachings upon its employees: http://realitybasedcommunity.net/arc...r_cio_sues.php [11] Second chance violating there lease in New Mexico and leaving a substantial bill after they fled: http://kob.com/article/stories/S761360.shtml?cat=500 [12] Coverage of the conference: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/200...6/18533664.php [13] The speeches made at the Hamburg conference: http://www.youtube.com/user/AboutScientology [14] Leaked Scientology documents: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Scientology [15] Australian news broadcasts portions of the infamous OT3 lecture in Hubbard’s own voice for the first time. OT3 is a level in Scientology which costs its members thousands of euro to learn. It’s basic teachings is that all life’s anxieties and worries are caused by the infestation of dead alien souls: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0WetfWy3hE [16] A selection of documentaries about Scientology from various countries: Spain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3cNdLK3tqs Ireland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypDb2e4vdy4 Germany: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl8gVtKzD5Q Israel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsqMqtpU44o England: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dv4u3fVQrU Denmark: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...22657154769083 [17] Analysis of the Headley’s cases against the Scientology enterprise: http://realitybasedcommunity.net/arc...eadley_v_1.php http://realitybasedcommunity.net/arc...re_headley.php [18] Buy ‘The Complex’ here: http://www.eason.ie/items/9781903582848 [19] Scientology prevents UK-based booksellers from stocking ‘The Complex’: http://anoneire.ning.com/profiles/bl...ology-prevents [20] Recent interview of John Duignan on the Gerry Ryan show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRcRkpaA_7k

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Well describe church however you please, they are a cult. Using the mask of religion, to generate profit.

To say they are a "cult" means what, exactly? According to Wikipedia:

Despite the existence of popular cult checklists, anthropologists and sociologists have argued that no one has been able to unambiguously define "cult" in a way that identifies only groups who will become illegally abusive or destructive. However, without attempting to predict crimes or torts by groups, scientific criteria of characteristics attributed to cults do exist. A little-known example is Alexander and Rollins' 1984 study, which concluded that the socially well-received group Alcoholics Anonymous is a cult by using the model of Lifton's thought reform techniques and applying those to AA's group indoctrination methodology.

Most organised religious movements, whether tagged as "cults" or not, seek to operate with a small financial surplus although some mass evangelical Christian cults seek to generate a very large surplus indeed. Hillsong is one of the few such churches in Australia. Its American-born pastor Brian Houston is the author of a book, You Need More Money: Discovering God's Amazing Financial Plan for Your Life, although I believe he has become slightly embarrassed by the comment that it attracted.

Mark Oppenheimer holds a PhD in religious history from Yale and wrote a couple of years ago in The Washington Post:

Weird, Sure. A Cult, No.

Sunday, August 5, 2007; B02

Scientology, the controversial religion whose adherents include John Travolta, Tom Cruise and Jenna Elfman, can't seem to stay out of the news. Sometimes the church would rather not have the publicity, as when Germany, which considers Scientology a cult, recently refused to let Cruise shoot scenes for his new movie in government buildings. Other times, Scientologists court the attention -- as when Cruise brought his Scientology-influenced anti-psychiatry crusade to the "Today" show in 2005.

Some Americans may consider Scientology perhaps a cult, maybe a violent sect, and certainly very weird. But Scientology is no more bizarre than other religions. And it's the similarities between Scientology and, say, Christianity and Judaism that make us so uncomfortable. We need to hate Scientology, lest we hate ourselves.

When it comes to Scientology, there's a hunger for the negative. I suspect that's because Scientology evinces an acute case of what Sigmund Freud called the narcissism of small differences: We're made most uncomfortable by that which is most like us. And everything of which Scientology is accused is an exaggerated form of what more "normal" religions do.

Does Scientology charge money for services? Yes -- but the average Mormon, tithing 10 percent annually, pays more to his church than all but the most committed Scientologists pay to theirs. Jews buying "tickets" to high-holiday services can easily part with thousands of dollars a year per family. Is Scientology authoritarian and cult-like? Yes -- but mainly at the higher levels, which is true of many religions. There may be pressure for members of Scientology's elite "Sea Organization" not to drop out, but pressure is also placed on Catholics who may want to leave some cloistered orders. Does Scientology embrace pseudoscience? Absolutely -- but its "engrams" and "E-meter" are no worse than what's propagated by your average "intelligent design" enthusiast. In fact, its very silliness makes it less pernicious. [...]

Certainly the Scientology establishment can be aggressive and hostile towards its critics and it is not alone in that. The Chanology project and the people behind it appear to have used some pretty obnoxious tactics themselves.

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I suspect that's because Scientology evinces an acute case of what Sigmund Freud called the narcissism of small differences: We're made most uncomfortable by that which is most like us.

Speak for yourself, Oppenheimer.

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Standard disclaimer: the disgusting statements contained in this post are the views of the poster, and unless specified do not represent the views of the moderators or the site's owners.

Manythings make me believe that the 'church' of $cientology is a cult and not a church; It is, no doubt, a religion-for-profit organisation. If they really cared about the people in their church would they not just give them the information? Why make them pay? Also I noted in your artical above that the author said payments were low and comparable with other Churchs, not true. To reach the top levels of 'understanding' you must of donnated around $300,000. And you better not try and leave or get your money back after you've started, past experience has shown the difficulties that come with such actions.

Then ofcourse there are cases like

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Lisa McPherson (February 10, 1959 – December 5, 1995) was a member of the Church of Scientology who died of a pulmonary embolism while under the care of the Flag Service Organization (FSO), a branch of the Church of Scientology.[1] Following her death, the Church of Scientology was indicted on two felony charges, "abuse and/or neglect of a disabled adult" and "practicing medicine without a license." The charges against the Church of Scientology were dropped after the state's medical examiner changed the cause of death from "undetermined" to an "accident" on June 13, 2000. A civil suit brought by her family against the Church was settled on May 28, 2004.[2]

from wiki.

And with full cort papers are reports

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On December 5, 1995, Lisa McPherson was dead on arrival at a hospital 45 minutes north of Clearwater Florida. According to the coroner's report, Lisa was underweight, severely dehydrated, and had bruises and bug bites (see the entire report here). Lisa's last address was listed by the police as 210 S. Ft. Harrison in Clearwater Florida, which is the Fort Harrison Hotel, a Scientology property. Lisa had been a Scientologist from the age of 18 to her death at age 36.

Also consider why now you must sign the 'Lisa McPherson' chase when you now enter $cientogy

Quote:

Lisa clause or Lisa McPherson clause: an adhesion clause to insulate one party from all damages, including personal injury or death, from known and unknown conduct of commission or omission of the party so released. An "adhesion clause" is a recognized legal term which means "take it or leave it", i.e., that the party signing the agreement has no bargaining power and therefore no alternative but to include the clause in the agreement.

from http://lisamcpherson.org/

The more read into $cientology it becomes clear that the church cares much more about itself and it's bussiness model than it's followers

As for Chanology. Anyone can do anything and claim it is in the name of Anonymous, but in it's PR releases it is clear that we are a peaceful Group, we do not condone physical attacks, nor actions against those who have fallen victim to the 'church' and there is evidence that Scientoligists faked attacks on themselves (for example sneding themselves White powder in the mail and saying it came from anonymous) in order to stop peaceful protest, but the cours saw through the lies and through the case out.

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The point remains that you cannot differenciate between a cult and a religion in any meaningful way...

Personally, I have to go with freedom of association/religion. As long as it is consenting adults with a reasonable level of intellectual ability (i.e. not mentally unstable/legally irresponsible) that are involved, I think we can only wash our hands of what happens...

What I would agree with is to stop the pressures the Church might exert on people deciding to leave...

But, otherwise, i'd stick with: "free will is a bitch, baby"

Too dangerous for liberties to do otherwise...

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Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.

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The point remains that you cannot differenciate between a cult and a religion in any meaningful way...

Granted, so we'll agree to disagree on whether its a cult or a religion...but its clearly a cult

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Personally, I have to go with freedom of association/religion. As long as it is consenting adults with a reasonable level of intellectual ability (i.e. not mentally unstable/legally irresponsible) that are involved, I think we can only wash our hands of what happens...

Oh the irony that the basic human rights of freedoms are used to defend the "church".

What about the freedoms of anyone who tries to speak out against the "church" and expose their practices?

The church operates a policy of 'Fair Game'
Below is an extract from a HCO Policy Letter dated: 18 October 1967,
[Note SP = Suppressive persons an expression used to describe those who do not follow the "church"]

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ENEMY SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.

Now if you ask any $cientoligist about "Fair Game" they will tell you that the policy is no longer in operation, having been cancled in 1968, and a leaked policy letter seems to show it was cancled.

Quote:

HCO Policy Letter of 21 October 1968 CANCELLATION OF FAIR GAME The practice of declaring people FAIR GAME will cease.

However, when you read the rest of the Policy Document, you notice that nothing has changed at all.

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FAIR GAME may not appear on any Ethics Order. It causes bad public relations. This P/L does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of an SP.

The only aspect of "Fair Game" which is no longer in operation is the branding "Fair Game". A rose by any other name...

This policy of "Fair Game" which is still in effect in all but name to this day is used to harras, manipulate, Sue, supress and intimidate anyone who tries to speak out against the church in books, videos ect ect.

And "Fair Game" is only one in a string of bullying tactics that the Co$ use. Recently they have grown very found of calling anonymous terrorists. Appearing on TV shows and News programs trying to claim that we are the ones suppressing free speech, this is a complete misunderstanding (and infact a deliberate misunderstanding of anonymous' position)

The Co$ even went to the length of Forging Bomb threats and other violent attacks directed at themselves to try and stop Anonymous from taking part in peaceful protest.

There are no boundaries that the Co$ will not cross to try and keep its appreaance as a "church" and not a criminal organisation. The true nature of the "church" was uncovered in the 70's when "Operation Snow White" was uncovered.

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peration Snow White was the Church of Scientology's name for a project during the 1970s to purge unfavorable records about Scientology and its founder L. Ron Hubbard. This project included a series of infiltrations and thefts from 136 government agencies, foreign embassies and consulates, as well as private organizations critical of Scientology, carried out by Church members, in more than 30 countries;[1] the single largest infiltration of the United States government in history[2] with up to 5,000 covert agents.[3] This was also the operation that exposed 'Operation Freakout', because this was the case that brought the government into investigation on the Church.[3] Under this program, Scientology operatives committed infiltration, wiretapping, and theft of documents in government offices, most notably those of the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. Eleven highly-placed Church executives, including Mary Sue Hubbard (wife of founder L. Ron Hubbard and second-in-command of the organisation), pleaded guilty or were convicted in federal court of obstructing justice, burglary of government offices, and theft of documents and government property. The case was United States vs. Mary Sue Hubbard et al., 493 F. Supp. 209 (D.D.C. 1979).[4][5][6][7]

The Artical goes into great length about exactly what happened and when, here is a sample

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On July 4 the FBI raided Church of Scientology locations in Los Angeles, Hollywood and Washington, DC.[8] The Los Angeles raid involved 156 FBI agents: the most that had ever been used in a single raid. It lasted 21 hours and filled a sixteen ton truck with documents and other items.[8] The raids not only turned up documentation of the group's illegal activities against the United States government,[46] but also illegal activities carried out against other perceived enemies of Scientology. These included "Operation Freakout", a conspiracy to frame author Paulette Cooper on false bomb-threat charges, and conspiracies to frame Gabe Cazares, mayor of Clearwater, Florida, on false hit-and-run charges.[47][48] The papers also revealed that Sir John Foster (author of the official UK Government inquiry into Scientology) and Lord Balniel (who had requested the report) were targets, along with the National Association for Mental Health (NAMH) and World Federation for Mental Health.[49] Comparing the FBI to the Gestapo, the Church declared that all the files seized from the Church were taken illegally,[50] though the FBI produced a 40-plus page affidavit detailing 160 specific items they were looking for.[51]

Operation Snow White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is all on record and viewable by the public. And this is only one of countless examples were the church has acted illegally and has displayed its true colours.

Does what you have read sound like the actions of a Church? or simply the dealings of a criminal organisation?

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Does what you have read sound like the actions of a Church?

No, but neither do the activities of the Roman Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition nor those of the God-fearing New England pilgrims during the Salem witch trials.

Even if Scientologists have broken the law in the past, they are still entitled to presumption of innocence in the present until there is proof beyond reasonable doubt to the contrary.

Personally I think they are a pretty nasty mob, but so is Fred Phelps's tribe and so are some of the other fundamentalist churches that try to impose their "morals" on the rest of society. However the fact that I don't like them carries no more moral and legal weight than the fact that, if they knew I existed, they probably wouldn't like me for denying that God created the Earth 6000 years ago, accepting the legality of homosexuality, abortion and various other matters on which we materially differ.

Under US law people who object to the Church of Scientology, its practices and teachings are perfectly entitled to voice their objections publicly:


... although I think most people would think it is a pretty juvenile attempt. But what they are not entitled to do is this:

Anti-Scientology Anons Defend Pube Warrior
By Candice M. Giove | Sunday, Jan. 18 2009

Inside the protest pen stationed across the street from the Church of Scientology on West 46th Street, a group of protesters huddled. "I was a donor," one Anon laughed, as he explained the travails of concealing the act of snipping pubic hairs in the workplace bathroom from his boss. "I'm taking a dump," he recounted yelling to explain his lengthy toilet break.

The Anons snickered.

Others proudly piped up that their pubes also were among the hairs stuck to the Vaseline coated chest of their fellow Anon now known as Agent Pubeit, who was arrested this past Wednesday after he darted through Scientology's Times Square headquarters, rubbing the rather vile cocktail on his skin, which also included toenail clippings, onto some Dianetics books. The Anon was charged with burglary, aggravated harassment and criminal mischief, all as hate crimes.

As The Village Voice had previously observed:

How Not to Protest Scientology
By Tony Ortega | Thursday, Jan. 15 2009

The Daily News has the greasy details on an extremely stupid prank pulled yesterday by a teenager who claimed to be a member of the anti-Scientology group, Anonymous.

Mahoud Samed Almahadin (a/k/a Matt Connor) apparently thought it might be a smart way to protest L. Ron Hubbard's wacky cabal by slathering himself in vaseline, toenail clippings, and pubic hair clippings, and then entering the Scientology building on W. 46th Street and rubbing himself on everything in sight.

Apparently, this isn't the first time Anonymous kids have pulled the prank, as evidenced by the video above, which comes with a sung soundtrack about "Brave Agent Pubeit."

No, this isn't brave. It's exactly the kind of crap Wise Beard Man warned would only backfire on Anonymous.

Anonymous kids: the adults are not going to see the humor, and they're even calling this a "hate crime."

Scientology always whines that it's the victim of persecution, and now you've handed them the best publicity they could ask for.

Is Anonymous done?

Looks like it didn't even last a year.

It might be a fun game, but then again, it might be time to grow up.