Originally Posted by contracycle

But you cannot discover how to fight the system without moving beyond a philosophical gloss on fashionable myths to examine the empirical reality of modern capitalism and the character of concrete struggles against it.

Sure you can. You decide you want something different and then go out and look for other people who agree with you.

Fact is, there were studies done in France BITD when the communist party was huge showing that most members didn't actually understand communism, they'd just joined up because their friends were in it. The same's true of most groups, of course, but communism's especially susceptible to it because the theory's so dense.

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Well, I thought it'd be simply because they were attracted by the simplicity of the solution: "The rich are all evil, let's take all their money". Which explains the switch observed from communist to the far-right: From blaming the rich to blaming the arabs - complex problems but simple solutions.

Now, I know that 'blaming the rich' doesn't do justice to Marxist analysis. But, really, that's what people like about it.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

Sure you can. You decide you want something different and then go out and look for other people who agree with you.

I think that's a fine example of "failing to discover how to fight the system". all you end up with is a little self-congratulatory clique. And anyway, Zizek himself would probably disagree, see below:

But anyway, as above it;s hardly as if I disagree with everything Zizek says. I just don't think he offers much of a practical alternative to the hard-won lessons of agit/prop. But this for example, I can get behind:

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...08 financial crash more hard earned private property was destroyed than if all of us here were to be destroying it night and day for weeks. They tell you we are dreamers. The true dreamers are those who think things can go on indefinitely the way they are. We are not dreamers. We are awakening from a dream which is tuning into a nightmare. We are not destroying anything. We are only witnessing how the system is destroying itself. We all know the classic scenes from cartoons. The cart reaches a precipice. But it goes on walking. Ignoring the fact that there is nothing beneath. Only when it looks down and notices it, it falls down. This is what we are doing here. We are telling the guys there on Wall Street – Hey, look down! (cheering). In April 2011, the Chinese government prohibited on TV and films and in novels all stories that contain alternate reality or time travel. This is a good sign for China. It means that people still dream about alternatives, so you have to prohibit this dream. Here we don’t think of prohibition. Because the ruling system has even suppressed our capacity to dream. Look at the movies that we see all the time. It’s easy to imagine the end of the world. An asteroid destroying all life and so on. But you cannot imagine the end of capitalism. So what are we doing here? Let me tell you a wonderful old joke from communist times. A guy was sent from East Germany to work in Siberia. He knew his mail would be read by censors. So he told his friends: Let’s establish a code. If the letter you get from me is written in blue ink ,it is true what I said. If it is written in red ink, it is false. After a month his friends get a first letter. Everything is in blue. It says, this letter: everything is wonderful here. Stores are full of good food. Movie theaters show good films from the West. Apartments are large and luxurious. The only thing you cannot buy is red ink. This is how we live. We have all the freedoms we want. But what we are missing is red ink. The language to articulate our non-freedom. The way we are taught to speak about freedom war and terrorism and so on falsifies freedom. And this is what you are doing here: You are giving all of us red ink. There is a danger. Don’t fall in love with yourselves. We have a nice time here. But remember: carnivals come cheap. What matters is the day after. When we will have to return to normal life. Will there be any changes then. I don’t want you to remember these days, you know, like - oh, we were young, it was beautiful. Remember that our basic message is: We are allowed to think about alternatives. The rule is broken. We do not live in the best possible world. But there is a long road ahead. There are truly difficult questions that confront us. We know what we do not want. But what do we want? What social organization can replace capitalism? What type of new leaders do we want? Remember: the problem is not corruption or greed. The problem is the system that pushes you to give up. Beware not only of the enemies. But also of false friends who are already working to dilute this process. In the same way you get coffee without caffeine, beer without alcohol, ice cream without fat. They will try to make this into a harmless moral protest.

Today Liberty Plaza had a visit from Slavoj Zizek | OccupyWallSt.org

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I think that's a fine example of "failing to discover how to fight the system". all you end up with is a little self-congratulatory clique.

Like OWS?

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This is how we live. We have all the freedoms we want. But what we are missing is red ink. The language to articulate our non-freedom.

Umm... Yah... Well... Whatever. If you need me I'll be over here getting on with my life.

Dude wrote a 5000 page book on Hegel and even he doesn't understand it, what chance have the rest of us got? At this level we're getting into some sort of stoner "OMG man, I just had a thought... what if none of this is real and we're all just the dream of an alien being in an alternate universe?" Well, yeah, what if? Who cares?

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Originally Posted by Zichao

Like OWS?

By definition, not, becuase they are only now negotiated what they actually agree on, and because they are taking action, not just flapping their gums.

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Dude wrote a 5000 page book on Hegel and even he doesn't understand it, what chance have the rest of us got? At this level we're getting into some sort of stoner "OMG man, I just had a thought... what if none of this is real and we're all just the dream of an alien being in an alternate universe?" Well, yeah, what if? Who cares?

I don't see what's hard to understand here. We know that the Divine Right of Kings existed, was actively promulgated by the system, and played a role in restraining revolt. The fact that oppressive societies try to make the thought of overthrowing them literally unthinkable is not exactly news. The only unusual thing here is that he is applying it to our society - correctly, of course.

Well there have been utopinian fantasists since about forever, so that's clearly bollocks.

If you can explain relativity in English, you can sure as hell explain what's supposed to happen after the revolution. If you can't manage it, then the chances are that you're lazy or your theory just sucks.

cc: roughly repaired, accidental edit

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Well there have been utopinian fantasists since about forever, so that's clearly bollocks.

Nope. No system of control has to work absolutely perfectly, it just has to command,or create, overwhelming consent.

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If you can explain relativity in English, you can sure as hell explain what's supposed to happen after the revolution. If you can't manage it, then the chances are that you're lazy or your theory just sucks.

I've done so many times, you just want an impossible standard of detail. It's like asking Rousseau to have detailed every precise measure of parliamentary practice, rather than having laid out the principles of the social contract. God knows, enough people get this that Monty Python could make comedy from it:

ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take
it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified
at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?