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Old 01-08-11, 09:37 AM
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Default Greece debt crisis: The 'we won't pay' anti-austerity revolt

Greece debt crisis: The 'we won't pay' anti-austerity revolt
With Greece in financial meltdown and the country rocked by protests we offer a beginner's guide to the crisis

Angelique Chrisafis in Thessaloniki
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 31 July 2011 21.03 BST
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Among the chic bars along Thessaloniki's historic waterfront, one restaurant stands out. "We want our money!" reads a banner dangling from the terrace of an American-themed diner and grill. Inside, 12 staff have changed the locks, are serving cans of supermarket beer to supporters and taking it in turns to sleep nights on the restaurant floor in protest at months of unpaid wages and the restaurant's sudden closure. This is the new symbol of Greece's spiralling debt crisis: a waiters' squat.

Margarita Koutalaki, 37, a softly spoken waitress, divorced with an 11-year-old daughter, worked here part-time for eight years, earning about €6.50 (£5.70) an hour. Now she is taking turns to sleep on an inflatable mattress in an upstairs room, guarding the squat, while her parents babysit her child.

"I'm owed about €3,000 in unpaid wages," she says, warning her plight is shared by legions of workers all over Greece who are waiting for months for outstanding pay from struggling business owners. "At first we were told we'd be paid the following month, then the pay stopped completely and we were told by phone that the restaurant was closing. We're still working, we're keeping the place going, providing food and drinks to our supporters. We've got more clients than before. This protest is all we can do. It comes naturally."

The waiters serve cheap drinks and cut-price dinners to a new clientele of leftists and protesters from the four-month-old "indignants" movement, who would previously never have set foot in this bastion of imperialism, the Greek franchise of US giant Applebee's. A banner in English tempts tourists with cheap souvlaki and meatballs "in support of the workers".

It is one month since Greece was paralysed by a general strike over harsh austerity measures, with mass street demonstrations and running battles between police and protesters in Syntagma Square, Athens.

Greeks are more distrustful than ever of their political class and its ability to lead them out of the crippling financial crisis. Polls show growing contempt for all parties and the discredited political system. Unemployment is at a record high of 16% – far higher for young people. Those lucky enough to still have a job have suffered dramatic salary cuts and tax increases.

Doctors and nurses recently staged walkouts over hospital cuts. Taxi drivers have hobbled Greece with strikes in the past two weeks, protesting at government plans to open up the industry. Their tactics included blocking ports and opening the Acropolis ticket office to let tourists in free.

Crucially, Greece's long-running "civil disobedience" movement, where ordinary citizens refuse to pay for anything from road tolls and bus tickets to extra doctors' charges, has not fizzled out in the summer holidays. The "We Won't Pay" offensive is championed as the purest form of "people's power". Organisers warn it could gain renewed force in September as the government launches a new round of financial restraint.

On the main Athens-Thessaloniki road, as drivers file back into Thessaloniki from a Sunday at the beach, a crowd of civilians in fluorescent orange safety bibs stand guard at the barriers to the main road toll into Greece's second city. Their jackets are emblazoned with "Total Disobedience". They push aside the red-and-white barriers and wave drivers through without paying the €2.80 toll. Banners read: "We won't pay", and "We won't give money to foreign bankers". Drivers gratefully drive through, some giving the thumbs up.

"We'll see a resurgence of civil disobedience in the autumn," says Nikos Noulas, a civil engineer from Thessaloniki, in a city centre cafe as he rolls out a series of posters championing the refusal to pay.

Living a 40-minute drive from the city centre, he commutes by motorbike for what scarce work remains, but avoids paying for bus tickets or tolls. He also stages supermarket ambushes, handing shoppers big protest stickers to place on any goods they consider ludicrously expensive. Milk is a favourite. Noulas and his group fill trolleys with goods and ask the manager for a 30% discount. When refused, they abandon the full trolleys at the till.

He acknowledges that a recent police clampdown has made things harder: "If a police officer is watching, there's little choice but to pay a road toll." But he says breaking the law by not paying small tolls or bus fares is far less serious than corrupt politicians and cartels which, he claims, ran Greece for decades with impunity. "This has taught us that the Greek people can resist. It has ignited public sentiment," he says.

The road-toll protest movement began more than two years ago outside Athens to counter what is seen as an extortionate and corrupt road toll system, with drivers expected to pay for stretches of road that have yet to be built. Some residents face paying more than €1,500 a year in tolls to get around their own neighbourhoods.

By the start of this year, the movement was flourishing and included refusals to pay for Athens metro tickets, with protesters covering ticket machines with plastic bags, as well as a long-running bus fare boycott in Thessaloniki after price rises by state-subsidised private firms. Others refuse to pay their TV licences.

Leftwing parties became involved, boosting the campaign's visibility. By March, more than half of the Greek population supported the "We Won't Pay" notion. The government heaped criticism on what it deemed an irresponsible "freeloader" mentality, warning that the non-payers would bring the country into disrepute and were starving the state of vital revenue from transport services. New laws were brought in on ticket evasion and police cracked down.

George Bakagiannis, an IT manager from the Athens area, has avoided paying road tolls for two years, simply stepping out of his car and pushing open the barrier at toll booths. His group stages toll-booth ambushes for two to three hours several times a week, waving drivers through without charge.

He has branched out into demonstrations against the €5 fee for doctors' consultations. He says: "We go to the hospital and close the cashier's room, telling people, 'Don't pay, we're here.' This isn't our crisis, it's the government's crisis. They steal our money; they're stealing our lives. Now they want us to believe even our savings aren't safe in the bank. This movement will grow in this autumn because things are so bad now that people genuinely don't have the money to pay."

The social commentator and writer, Nikos Dimou, says: "It's the beginning of a divorce between the Greeks and their politicians. That's what all these movements have in common: they are all about a loathing and abhorring of the political class."

In Thessaloniki, Greece's second city, feelings run high. The "indignants" had their tents forcibly cleared from Athens' Syntagma Square this weekend, but Thessaloniki's ancient waterfront fortification, the White Tower, is still surrounded by protest tents and draped in banners reading "For sale" and "Not for sale."

Northern Greece has been badly hit by the crisis. Businesses began closing long before the full force of the financial meltdown. So many people are too poor to regularly use their cars and so many businesses have ground to a halt that Thessaloniki's municipality has claimed a vast improvement in the air quality of the notoriously congested city. On 10 September, when the Greek prime minister George Papandreou appears at Thessaloniki's famous international fair to unveil his new economic measures, he will be met by demonstrations.

Thessaloniki protesters are using flash-mobbing, where crowds turn up unexpectedly to picket banks and public buildings. The latest target was the German consulate, where dozens of demonstrators chanted and spray-painted the pavement, demanding the European Union did more for Greece as plainclothes police looked on.

At the demo on 20 July, Barbara, 30, a Greek language teacher, who did not want to give her surname, said she was serving coffee in a bar for €30 per nine-hour shift on the black economy. She lives with her father, a pensioner, and mother, a shop owner who is deeply in debt.

"No one is hiring, I can't find teaching work or private lessons. There's no hope for a decent life. Half the people I know are unemployed; the other half are on the edge of it. Anyone who can afford to go abroad is leaving," she says.

At the White Tower, Antonis Gazakis, a language and history teacher, says he is struck by how novices are now joining the protests, from myriad political standpoints, left to right, many with no links to parties or any history of protest. All were throwing themselves into debating how to change what they see as a corrupt political and parliamentary system. "Political history is being made in Greece," he says. "That's why I'm staying around this summer. The last time people went out into a square demanding constitutional change like this was 1909. This is a golden opportunity, a paradigm shift. Greece has woken up."

Greece debt crisis: The 'we won't pay' anti-austerity revolt | World news | The Guardian
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Old 01-08-11, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
"We won't give money to foreign bankers".
But you did take money from them easily enough, he?

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This isn't our crisis, it's the government's crisis. They steal our money...
I thought you guys were a democracy of sort like the rest of us? Maybe you should have fixed that?

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The social commentator and writer, Nikos Dimou, says: "It's the beginning of a divorce between the Greeks and their politicians. That's what all these movements have in common: they are all about a loathing and abhorring of the political class."
Great. Hang them and have them raped by dogs for all I care. But we still want as much as possible of our money back.

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"Political history is being made in Greece," he says. "That's why I'm staying around this summer. The last time people went out into a square demanding constitutional change like this was 1909. This is a golden opportunity, a paradigm shift. Greece has woken up."
It's about time. Now pay us back, please.
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Old 01-08-11, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
But you did take money from them easily enough, he?
But THEY didn't.

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I thought you guys were a democracy of sort like the rest of us? Maybe you should have fixed that?
No, they are a republic, not a democracy, like us.

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Great. Hang them and have them raped by dogs for all I care. But we still want as much as possible of our money back.
Is the money "ours"? I thought you just said it was the banks. Why should you care?
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Old 01-08-11, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
But THEY didn't.
Greece = Greeks. As you pointed out in another thread, we ain't monarchies anymore.

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No, they are a republic, not a democracy, like us.
See above. The republic belongs to the citizens. It's their jobs to ensure it runs correctly.

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Is the money "ours"? I thought you just said it was the banks. Why should you care?
It's the banks'. And the banks are ours. if 'our' banks blow up, it'll be your money on the line. Your taxes. Your pension. Your weekly social security payment. At this point in the game, banks = monetary system. And monetary systems do belong to everyone partaking in it.

As they say, currency is a strange thing. It's both a private good (the money in your pocket is yours) and a public good (money has only the value we attribute to it, it's a collective representation).
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Old 01-08-11, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Greece = Greeks. As you pointed out in another thread, we ain't monarchies anymore.
But we're not democracies either.

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See above. The republic belongs to the citizens. It's their jobs to ensure it runs correctly.
If the elected appointees decided to spend the entire national revenue on, oh I dunno, filling a lake with Krug for a day of boating, all the public could do is refuse to reelect them. The decision would still have been made.

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It's the banks'. And the banks are ours.
Really? I don't recall owning a single bank.

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if 'our' banks blow up, it'll be your money on the line. Your taxes. Your pension. Your weekly social security payment.
Not really. If they fail, we could just nationalise them. If their only function is to be a glorified post office, that would be fine.

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At this point in the game, banks = monetary system. And monetary systems do belong to everyone partaking in it.
I think that's an excellent reason for refusing to pay them. Go the Greeks!
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Old 01-08-11, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
But we're not democracies either.
Republics are good enough an approximation.

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If the elected appointees decided to spend the entire national revenue on, oh I dunno, filling a lake with Krug...
... or keeping the retirement age at 50 so as to pacify & please the voters...

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Really? I don't recall owning a single bank.
"In April 2009 the preference shares were converted into ordinary shares and the Government's ordinary shareholding in RBS now stands at 66%. Including the Governments acquisition of B shares in December 2009 the total economic ownership of the UK Government is 82% of the RBS Group."

And, in truth, banks that are too-big-to-fail should automatically be considered publically owned. After all, the taxpayers are underwriting their risks...

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Not really. If they fail, we could just nationalise them.
I am fine with that as well. But the money lost is still lost and thus something will have to be done about that. Repairing balance sheets is a painful exercise. Ask the Japanese.

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Go the Greeks!
Well, of course, you would say that. I hope you've stocked up on canned food, medecines and guns. If you get your way, we're going to need them...
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Old 01-08-11, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Republics are good enough an approximation.
Well, seeing as the public are rejecting what has been done "in their name", clearly not.

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... or keeping the retirement age at 50 so as to pacify & please the voters...
... because heaven forfend the voters be appeased! After all the real purpose of the government is to leave corporations free to loot them. And thus the Greeks have to be disciplined,mfor having the crazy idea into their heads that the government is there for their benefit.

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"In April 2009 the preference shares were converted into ordinary shares and the Government's ordinary shareholding in RBS now stands at 66%. Including the Governments acquisition of B shares in December 2009 the total economic ownership of the UK Government is 82% of the RBS Group."
Yep. So, I don't own it, and didn't consent to my taxes being spent on it, and would happily let it go down. But I don't get to make that choice either, becuase this isn;t a democracy.

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And, in truth, banks that are too-big-to-fail should automatically be considered publically owned. After all, the taxpayers are underwriting their risks...
Well of course, but careful, you're in danger of contracting Mad Greek Disease.

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I am fine with that as well. But the money lost is still lost and thus something will have to be done about that. Repairing balance sheets is a painful exercise. Ask the Japanese.
But I don't see why I should be required to give a shit about some bankers making bad bets.

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Well, of course, you would say that. I hope you've stocked up on canned food, medecines and guns. If you get your way, we're going to need them...
Nonsense. I supported the bailout becuase it was necessary, but this is not. I don't see why I should be obliged to act to help those holding me hostage continue to do so.
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Old 02-08-11, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Well, seeing as the public are rejecting what has been done "in their name", clearly not.
After the fact, when things have gone wrong... Somehow, they had no problems with retirement at 50 done "in their name"...

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... because heaven forfend the voters be appeased! After all the real purpose of the government is to leave corporations free to loot them. And thus the Greeks have to be disciplined, for having the crazy idea into their heads that the government is there for their benefit.
Hey, they can retire at 35 for all I care. But not on other people's dime. That sounds fair enough to me...

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Yep. So, I don't own it, and didn't consent to my taxes being spent on it, and would happily let it go down. But I don't get to make that choice either, becuase this isn;t a democracy.
Well, I am not sure how you can be 'pro bailout' but want RBS to go down at the same time. That seems pretty contradictory.

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Well of course, but careful, you're in danger of contracting Mad Greek Disease.
No, I just want things to be fair. The Greeks don't get to have a good time at the French and Germans' expense. The Banks don't get to have a good time at the expense of everyone else. And, technically, the German corporations and people shouldn't be allowed to get a good time at the expense of the rest of the EU either...

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But I don't see why I should be required to give a shit about some bankers making bad bets.
Because they're so big we are basically underwriting them... A situation I am not happy with either.

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Nonsense. I supported the bailout becuase it was necessary, but this is not. I don't see why I should be obliged to act to help those holding me hostage continue to do so.
It's still the same bailout. And the only reason we are helping the Greeks is because we figure it'd be less costly than letting them write down everything and refinance our banks.

Banks shouldn't have lend. And the Greeks shouldn't have borrowed. Yet they did and so we need a way out. And the banks can't collapse or they'll take everyone down with them. That's the situation. I am happy you get to see some agitation in the streets but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.
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Old 02-08-11, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
After the fact, when things have gone wrong... Somehow, they had no problems with retirement at 50 done "in their name"...
Why should they?

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Hey, they can retire at 35 for all I care. But not on other people's dime. That sounds fair enough to me...
Well, then you should have no problem with it.

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Well, I am not sure how you can be 'pro bailout' but want RBS to go down at the same time. That seems pretty contradictory.
Not at all. A position taken by necessity during a crisis doesn't oblige me to accept as a principle that all banks should be bailed out under all circumstances.

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No, I just want things to be fair. The Greeks don't get to have a good time at the French and Germans' expense. The Banks don't get to have a good time at the expense of everyone else. And, technically, the German corporations and people shouldn't be allowed to get a good time at the expense of the rest of the EU either...
Which is irrelevant to this issue. Ordinary Greek citizens didn't benefit from that borrowing; that is why they are refusing to accept the obligation to pay for it.

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Because they're so big we are basically underwriting them... A situation I am not happy with either.
Thats a circular argument. They will always be too big if they are never allowed to fail. some banks taking a hit on Greek debt doesn;t pose anything like the systemic dangers we were looking at before, and it there is no partiuclar reason they should be bailed out. As a result, what is really happening is that Greeks and German are being taxed to keep rich bankers rich. Why should we accept that?

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It's still the same bailout. And the only reason we are helping the Greeks is because we figure it'd be less costly than letting them write down everything and refinance our banks.
But we're not helping the Greeks - we're helping the banks.

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Banks shouldn't have lend. And the Greeks shouldn't have borrowed. Yet they did and so we need a way out. And the banks can't collapse or they'll take everyone down with them. That's the situation. I am happy you get to see some agitation in the streets but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.
That's not the situation. Having the bulk of the world major bakns go down because of dodgy parctices and leverage coming to lihgt is not the same as fewer banks now having to simply write off some losses. That is precisely why I drew a distinction between a response to the crisis, which was necessary, and a bailout now, which is not.
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Old 02-08-11, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Ordinary Greek citizens didn't benefit from that borrowing...
Joining the Euro and retiring at 50. And you still think they didn't profit from it. I guess you're going to stay stubborn on the subject and short of showing you a transfer payment slip from the ECB directly to every Greek citizen personal bank account, you're going to deny they ever benefitted?

They way I see it, the EU membership allowed the Greek gvt to run into pretty damn high level of debt, which allowed it to deliver some social goodies without having to worry about how to pay for it (for example, by making its tax collection more efficient).

So if you want to say it's all the rich Greeks who abused the system, that's true as well but I am tired of hearing that people are innocent simply because they're not filthy rich.

Retiring at 50 and not paying for it is not kosher. If the Greeks want to retire at 50, they need credible funding for it. Not using foreign debt. That's it. And that'd be the same thing if they had used the money to build a huge military or a space program.

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Some banks taking a hit on Greek debt doesn't pose anything like the systemic dangers we were looking at before...
Ah, okay, I understand your pov now. Well, I've seen some numbers and I am a lot less confident than you about the non-systematic aspect of Greek debt/ a Greek default. Without even mentioning the contagion effects, which are nearly impossible to predict in anything but the most general terms.

We've been there before with Lehman. "They can go down, they're small enough..."
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