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Old 20-07-11, 12:32 PM
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Default Stop patronising poor Americans

Stop patronising poor Americans | SE Smith | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

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There's a narrative that comes up in supposedly progressive communities, especially around election time. It is the suggestion that there are people who "vote against their own interests". Electoral results and polls are examined and the narrative declares that, gosh, some people just don't know what's good for them, because if they did they wouldn't have voted that way. They wouldn't vote for an organisation that's really working against their interests. They wouldn't contribute financially to such a cause because it is bad, wrong or evil.

I see this especially with discussions about people living in poverty. There's a strange duality that seems to occur where on the one hand, people insist that poor communities deserve autonomy, and need to be treated with respect. On the other hand, though, they're saying incredibly patronising things about people who live in poverty, suggesting they don't know their own best interests and are not capable of making informed choices after being presented with information. It's peculiar to see people basically trying to keep the poor in a subordinate position while claiming to advocate for them; "it's for your own good", they say.

But most people do know their own best interests and people who act in a way that might appear to be in contradiction with those interests usually know what they are doing. Many progressives cannot figure out why poor people vote Republican, the implication being that Democrats have done so much for people in poverty, that progressive political parties are all totally viable, so it follows that everyone should vote for them.

Republicans are good at messaging. They communicate clear, simple ideas that appeal to many people. A lot of people like the idea of paying lower taxes, of freezing government spending. A lot of people value gun ownership. A lot of people think that gay people don't deserve civil rights. Republicans promise all of those things. If I was a person who held those values as particularly important, I would probably vote Republican, because they would be promising me exactly what I wanted. They would be promising me things in direct alignment with my interests.

But, some people say, the poor need government benefits and freezing government spending would put a stop to that. So people who vote Republican are shooting themselves in the foot. Except that things are not that simple. We are in a Democratic presidential administration right now, and guess what is being cut? Yes, that's right, social services. Electing a Democrat is no guarantee that social services will be protected.

Here in California, with a Democratic governor, we're having even more severe spending cuts. Some people who voted for Jerry Brown are pretty angry about those cuts, as well they should be. On the other hand, he made no secret of his intentions during the campaign, he made no attempt to hide his plans while preparing the budget. So who voted against which interests there? Brown promised the lesser of a field of evils and now we're reaping it.

I find the idea that people cannot make political decisions if they're poor incredibly offensive. If you're a poor person who votes for a progressive candidate, you've been taught to do the right thing, well done, the narrative goes. If you're a poor person who votes for a conservative candidate, you're voting against your own best interests, which is what happens when we allow people like you to vote; you bad thing, no cookie for you. Nowhere in here is there any room for autonomy, for the decision to personally, of your own volition, make an informed choice about how you participate in the political process.

Nowhere here is there any respect for the fact that many people come from radically different cultural backgrounds and have different priorities to others. Writing about rural politics in March, Andrea discussed the fact that for many people in rural communities, the social services vaunted by progressives are never actually seen, and there's no particular reason to vote to have even less money. Furthermore, those progressive social service platforms, those promises to help, say, people living in rural areas who are very poor, also come with extremely bitter pills like gun control laws that people are not comfortable with. So of course they vote against them, just as you would vote against a platform that contained content you were not comfortable with, because you can make an informed decision on the basis of the available information.

Rather than assuming that the poor vote against their own interests, it might behove people to find out what those interests are. And it might help to do a little more outreach work; people vote for the candidates they know and the people they feel comfortable with. If they don't know the candidates, or primarily only receive negative messaging about them, they're less likely to vote for them. If you want campaigns to be successful in traditionally conservative poor communities, start by reaching out to those communities, finding out what they need, networking with community leaders, and talking with them about how to reach their community with information.

It's not about making communities vote for a particular cause, but about how to effectively communicate with a community. But making derogatory comments saying people vote against their own best interests, or cling to guns and Jesus? That's not communicating. That's an indicator of the contempt you hold for the community. Why should they respond to that by voting for you?
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Old 20-07-11, 01:00 PM
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I was making that point to someone else or somewhere else... Or maybe here. If you're in the UK, you're not getting any kind of service for the taxes you pay. Therefore, it's kind of normal to fight to pay even less tax.

Because what's really missing in that picture is who doesn't pay taxes/enough taxes: Extremely wealthy individuals and big corporations.

Thus, the state taxes whom it can i.e. normal people - But it cannot deliver the services it used to when it could also tax the rich and corporations thus paying taxes becomes a losing proposal for the middle class...

As to the fact that Conservatives deliver on social concerns, well, yes, they do. And, technically, it is their free choice. But sacrificing your economic interests to satisfy your social concerns is definitely an expensive arbitrage. And, of course, denying other people their civil rights just coz you feel like it is an attitude we should stamp on hard in any case.

"Writing about rural politics in March, Andrea discussed the fact that for many people in rural communities, the social services vaunted by progressives are never actually seen..."

Really? I would suspect there's a point here but would somewhat double-check. Maybe people don't see them as much as in cities but I doubt that they don't actually exist.
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Old 20-07-11, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Rather than assuming that the poor vote against their own interests, it might behove people to find out what those interests are.
Those interests, in terms of this discussion, are the same as everyone elses health, wealth, job security, etc. They are quite clearly voting against their own interests. I don't see what is to be gained by pretending this is not the case for fear of "offending" someone.


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If you're in the UK, you're not getting any kind of service for the taxes you pay.
Bizzarro world.
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Old 20-07-11, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Bizzarro world.
I pay taxes and I still have to pay again for healthcare and education coz the public option in these two categories is pathetically inadequate to what I want... So I pay twice. Not good.
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Old 20-07-11, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Those interests, in terms of this discussion, are the same as everyone elses health, wealth, job security, etc. They are quite clearly voting against their own interests. I don't see what is to be gained by pretending this is not the case for fear of "offending" someone.
If you give the poor votes they only use them to keep the coal in etc.
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Old 20-07-11, 03:53 PM
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I didn't say they shouldn't have the vote.

Which is better anyway, to work from the view that the may be mistaken or from the view that they are malicious and evil?
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Old 20-07-11, 03:55 PM
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Malicious and evil. At least that regocnises that they're human beings capable of making their own choices, rather than patronising them. If they're stupid and we're clever then there's no point letting them have votes in the first place.
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Old 20-07-11, 03:57 PM
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The thing is things also slide easily from one to the next.

American poors opposing immigration could be seen as perfectly rational. South-Am people and Mexicans coming over keep pressurising salaries downward for the least skilled amongst the locals.

But from that objective "they steal our jobs/destroy our bargaining power" to "and they smell, play loud shitty music and eat strange foods and I don't like them", it's usually a small step, easily taken.

One thing is a legitimate concern, the other need to be stamped on pretty hard...
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Old 20-07-11, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
If they're stupid and we're clever then there's no point letting them have votes in the first place.
Well, to be fair, I was always a proponent of reducing the franchise to "just me". Things would be instantly far better for everyone, not just myself.
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Old 20-07-11, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Malicious and evil. At least that regocnises that they're human beings capable of making their own choices, rather than patronising them. If they're stupid and we're clever then there's no point letting them have votes in the first place.
If they're malicious and evil, they DEFINITELY can't be allowed to vote, becuase now they are simply mad, bad and dangerous to know. I don't see how that supposedly recognises their volition - it does nothing of the sort.

Fact it, it's NOT patronising. It's a recognition genuinhe personhood.
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