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Old 23-06-11, 10:34 PM
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Default Greece, Schengen, Nato – it's time to admit the European dream is over

Greece, Schengen, Nato – it's time to admit the European dream is over

As its leaders meet to grapple with the Greek crisis, the airwaves are full of existential debates about the future of the EU itself


Martin Kettle
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 23 June 2011 21.30 BST


To hear such a bold assertion from one of the two men was striking. But to hear it coming from the other was the sign of a political earthquake. Last month, during a rip-roaring lecture at the Hay Festival, the historian Niall Ferguson observed, almost as an aside, that our generation is "of course" living through the collapse of the European Union. Designed to provoke? Of course. That's Ferguson. It's the sort of remark that you dwell on, all the same.

Especially when, just the other day, I heard Sir Stephen Wall say something so similar. Here's what Wall said, at a seminar run by the Policy Network thinktank in London: "We have seen the high point of the European Union. With a bit of luck it will last our lifetime [Wall is 64]. But it's on the way out. After all, very few institutions last forever."

Ferguson is a Eurosceptic. His dismissive view of the EU is not a surprise. But Wall's view that the EU is on the way out marks the death of the old faith. For Wall was the most influential British pro-European diplomat of his time: our man in the negotiations of most of the EU treaties of the modern era; Tony Blair's longtime European policy adviser; and the author of a book on the EU that begins with the words: "I am convinced that wholehearted participation in the EU is strongly in Britain's national interest." First the Berlin Wall. Now Stephen Wall. European collapses don't come more dramatic.

Yet the remarkable thing about Wall's pessimism is that it no longer seems so remarkable. As EU leaders gathered in Brussels on Thursday to grapple with the Greek crisis, the airwaves were awash with existential debates not just about Greece or the eurozone but about the very future of the EU itself. Though most EU-watchers still talk of muddling through as the most likely policy response to Greek bankruptcy, it is a muddling without momentum, direction or real agreement, let alone enthusiasm. David Marquand, lifelong pro-European social democrat, author of a new lament on Europe, parodies Lenin by characterising current policy as "one step forward, three steps back".

It is not hard to see why this tone has now captured the European debate. The Greek crisis has vindicated those who said the country should never have been allowed to join monetary union. That may be blood under the bridge now; but the debt crisis exposes something that would have been exposed at some time anyway – the failure of former German chancellor Helmut Kohl's generation of European leaders to back monetary union with the economic and political union without which the eurozone was always going to be vulnerable.

Any commentator who forecast victory for the AV referendum should not quote himself too proudly. Nevertheless, I wrote in 1997 that it was possible to imagine a Europe "in which the Treaty of Maastricht will come to be seen in some places (perhaps even in Germany itself) as the Treaty of Versailles came to be seen in inter-war Europe – as the source of the problem, not the answer to it. If the attempt to satisfy the convergence conditions, or the effort to keep within the single currency 'stability pact' is to cause, or even to appear to cause, the dismantling of the welfare and redistributive systems upon which millions of the poorest in Europe depend, then it could spark populist and nationalist backlashes in almost any state in the EU."

This view wasn't rocket science. Yet today, that dynamic is not just imaginable but happening. It is happening, moreover, not solely because of the sovereign debt crisis in Greece and the rest. The platonic Europe of which Jean Monnet and Jacques Delors dreamed, a Europe with unifying institutions of law and government, with a single demos and a single chair at the high counsels of the world, is retreating on several fronts.

The single currency is the most dramatic. But the collapse of the Schengen treaty on freedom of movement within the EU is almost as potent a sign, a response not just to the surges of migration triggered by the Arab spring, but also to national concerns about jobs and welfare in the recession. Meanwhile, Europe's failure to evolve an effective common security and foreign policy, highlighted in Nato over Libya as in the past in Afghanistan and Iraq, and excoriatingly exposed by the US defence secretary Robert Gates earlier this month, underscores not just a failure to progress, but in practice a further retreat from a meaningful common approach.

Whenever two or more consenting Europe-watchers gather together to discuss these things, it is never long before someone says that the only alternative to muddling through is a bold regenerative leap – a single tax regime, a unified banking system and, above all, a single federal system of law and government for what remains of the eurozone, just as Delors wanted a generation ago.

There will be such talk at Brussels this week. But it's not going to happen. Or at least it's not going to work. Times have changed. Delors' generation has gone from the scene. The nationalist right and the global bond markets have won. The internationalist social and Christian democrats have lost. The Europhiles who speak of such leaps remind me of nothing so much as the crazy American evangelicals who think these are the end times of the Earth and that a liberating act of rapture will save us from ourselves and our sins.

I say this as someone who wanted and wants the European project to succeed, who still believes that our collective interests lie in a single, though smaller, probably northern European federal state with an overarching, directly elected government where appropriate; a single currency; shared tax and social solidarity systems; common defence and security policies; and occupying a single seat at the world's summits. That Europe would get my vote. But it is not going to happen, nor is anything like it, even in my children's lifetimes.

The question facing Europeans is therefore this. Not to forge an ever closer union in which, for all the EU's successes, the word forge seems unhappily to be increasingly appropriate. But how to manage the now foreseeable breakup of the EU in a responsible and restrained way, preserving and strengthening such forms of co-operation as we can. The goal would be to minimise the dangers of war between states, ethnic conflict within them, and immiseration of the most defenceless: all more real dangers in the next generation than the last. But that, ironically, was why the EU was created in the first place.

Greece, Schengen, Nato ? the European dream is over | Martin Kettle | Comment is free | The Guardian
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Old 23-06-11, 10:58 PM
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The goal would be to minimise the dangers of war between states, ethnic conflict within them, and immiseration of the most defenceless: all more real dangers in the next generation than the last. But that, ironically, was why the EU was created in the first place.
Self-indulgent, baby-boomer fantasising.

These days the fast majority of (Western) people who are over about 35 is totally imprinted with this ludicrous halcyon vision of the world where either things work or they don't and if they don't work then they get fixed and we all go to Disney World and have ice-creams.

We can't stop to fix the EU or go back or whatever this guy wants because it's all we've got to stand up to the Brasilians and the Chinese, countries who didn't have a post-war honeymoon and are well aware that you go to war with the army you've got.
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Old 23-06-11, 11:06 PM
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Eh? I wasn't expecting that.

I mean, he wasn't proposing anything, or going back to anything, just saying "lets hope we can manage to not go back to mutual enmity". That seems a reasonable enough hope to me.

Anyway, I thought it was quite interesting. I would certainly say that I tend to think of the EU as a permanent fixture, but maybe it isn't. I'm also generally in favour of it in principle, but maybe we are in a time and a place where it can't be maintained. Or, maybe inertia will just keep it staggering on. I don't know. But the stresses Kettle mentions are not fictional.
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Old 23-06-11, 11:41 PM
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Yeah, but what would it be replaced with? Just nothing? Well fine, I guess it's our funeral then. I'll just look for a job in China or something.

My point was that I don't think that improving the EU is even an issue. Yeah, the economy sucks but nothing on earth is going to fix that. We can either have a sucky economy or have a sucky economy and then be eaten alive by the Chinese. Misquoting Patton, better a bad plan executed now than a good plan executed next week.
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Old 24-06-11, 12:08 AM
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Sure. I think Kettle's just proposing that maybe we should start thinking about a plan, and that even "nothing" might actually be better than when we had a Maginot Line facing off against a Siegfried Line, which is just about still within living memory. What he actually said he;d like is a tighter but smaller union.

For myself, I'd rather go the whole way, towards full political union. I'd be quite comfortable with united, federal Europe, but of course there are plenty of people against that. Many people have pointed out over the years that monetary union without political union is an accident waiting to happen, and that chicken has just come home to roost. Maybe we should have a single European army than the mess of borrowed aircraft carriers and reliance on the Americans to lend us Tomahawks.

Either splitting up or fully unifying would arguably be preferable to the strange limbo we are presently in.
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Old 24-06-11, 09:21 AM
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Another thought occurred, Kettle proposes "a single, though smaller, probably northern European federal state". So if "northern european" amounts to, probably, Germany, France, Britain and Scandinavia, wouldn't that almost be tantamount to a Fourth Reich? Heavy irony there.
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Old 24-06-11, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
These days the fast majority of (Western) people who are over about 35 is totally imprinted with this ludicrous halcyon vision of the world where either things work or they don't and if they don't work then they get fixed and we all go to Disney World and have ice-creams.
Well, I am over 35 so I guess I qualify...

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We can't stop to fix the EU or go back or whatever this guy wants because it's all we've got to stand up to the Brasilians and the Chinese, countries who didn't have a post-war honeymoon and are well aware that you go to war with the army you've got.
Huh? We're not quite at war with these people yet. We can take the time to fix the EU. Especially as, apart from political courage and ignoring the democratic wishes of the national population, nothing really stands in our way but our own inertia...
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Old 24-06-11, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Yeah, but what would it be replaced with? Just nothing? Well fine, I guess it's our funeral then.
If the EU project fails, this is indeed what we're looking at. What do you think all these Euroskeptics are about?

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My point was that I don't think that improving the EU is even an issue. Yeah, the economy sucks but nothing on earth is going to fix that.
Wrong. A tight and deep union (i.e. federal) union of Western/Northern Europe could and would kick ass. As I've said elsewhere, the project died when we decided to extend it instead of deepening it...
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Old 24-06-11, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Many people have pointed out over the years that monetary union without political union is an accident waiting to happen, and that chicken has just come home to roost.
Indeed. Or at least fiscal. Union. But 'political' without 'fiscal' is pretty hollow anyhow, I'd say...

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Maybe we should have a single European army than the mess of borrowed aircraft carriers and reliance on the Americans to lend us Tomahawks.
That was tried in the 50s or 60s, iirc. As someone said when Maastricht was voted upon and it looked plausible we (the 'yes' vote, that is) would lose, it was their Maastricht moment and they did lose back then. But they kept moving forward, despite the heavy blow. The writer was then arguing the EU project would not die, even if the 'No' won... Eventually, the 'Yes' won so that was that. But common defense has been proposed and rejected before.

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Either splitting up or fully unifying would arguably be preferable to the strange limbo we are presently in.
At the very least, it would be more intellectually coherent and save us the gazillions we're wasting in Brussels.

I frankly do not like the attitude that says "Oh well, waste and inefficencies on such a scale are perfectly normal and can't be avoided. It's just the way systems work"...

Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Another thought occurred, Kettle proposes "a single, though smaller, probably northern European federal state". So if "northern european" amounts to, probably, Germany, France, Britain and Scandinavia, wouldn't that almost be tantamount to a Fourth Reich? Heavy irony there.
There was no problem with the Reich per se. Only with the ideology of its leaders and the methods of imposing it. But Europe has been unified before, to various degree/in various configurations, as I am sure you know perfectly well.

By the way, "northern Europe" would probably not include Britain but would include the Benelux (already an aggregate).
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Old 24-06-11, 05:05 PM
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Sure. I think Kettle's just proposing that maybe we should start thinking about a plan, and that even "nothing" might actually be better than when we had a Maginot Line facing off against a Siegfried Line, which is just about still within living memory.
And in a set of political circumstances that are completely different to what we have today and totally irrelevant...

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What he actually said he;d like is a tighter but smaller union.

For myself, I'd rather go the whole way, towards full political union. I'd be quite comfortable with united, federal Europe, but of course there are plenty of people against that. Many people have pointed out over the years that monetary union without political union is an accident waiting to happen, and that chicken has just come home to roost. Maybe we should have a single European army than the mess of borrowed aircraft carriers and reliance on the Americans to lend us Tomahawks.

Either splitting up or fully unifying would arguably be preferable to the strange limbo we are presently in.
Sure. But then I'd like to have a flying car and that's not going to happen any time in the forseeable future either.

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Huh? We're not quite at war with these people yet. We can take the time to fix the EU.
So what's the deadline? Ten years? Twenty years? And at what point will you consider it officially fixed?

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Especially as, apart from political courage and ignoring the democratic wishes of the national population, nothing really stands in our way but our own inertia...
And those don't count as serious problems?

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If the EU project fails, this is indeed what we're looking at. What do you think all these Euroskeptics are about?
My point is that the old definitions/criteria for success and failure don't apply any more. However much the EU may meet the objective criteria for failure it'll survive as long as the threats from outside are sufficient. People are gradually facing up to the fact that things aren't going to get better - demographics and disappearing resrouces aren't problems that are just going to go away. We're going to have to recalibrate our definition of "normality".
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