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Old 17-05-11, 08:33 AM
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Rikers Island? Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeriously? Where the crap is he going to run to?

Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Unless they can identify a clear lie, it's going to be tough... And I wouldn't want to elect someone whom I wasn't confident he's innocent... When it comes to sex, I am all for fun and games but consent remains the crucial condition.
Sure, consent's a great principal for basing a society on. None better. Whenever I do anything that may appear contrary to the ideal it's called "making an executive decision".
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Old 17-05-11, 08:45 AM
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France questions itself over Dominique Strauss-Kahn's 'open secret' | World news | The Guardian

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Less than three weeks ago, Dominique Strauss-Kahn sat down in a Paris restaurant for an off-the-record lunch with two journalists from the daily Libération. The IMF chief outlined the three biggest personal hurdles in his relentless campaign to become president of France: "Money, women and being a Jew."

He started with women. "Yes I like women, so what?" he asked. "For years, there's been talk of photos of a giant orgy, but I've never seen them come out," he added, challenging his opponents to produce long-rumoured pictures of a night at a posh swingers' club dating back decades. He said he had warned President Nicolas Sarkozy (while they stood side by side at the urinals of the gents during a recent international summit) to stop smearing him over his private life. Strauss-Kahn then volunteered to the journalists a hypothetical example of something that could bring him down: "A woman raped in a parking lot who is promised half a million euros to make up her story."

Before Strauss-Kahn's opponents began throwing what one socialist described as "stink bombs" at him, he was keen to present himself as the victim of a potentially ruthless campaign.

Everyone in French political and media circles knew Strauss-Kahn's achilles heel was his attitude to women. Even his closest political allies admitted he was an inveterate seducer, an unashamed libertine. But what makes the scandal new and unprecedented in a presidential race is the crossing of the line to sexual violence, attempted rape and brutal assault.

Strauss-Kahn denies the charges, and his allies call him a seducer without the "profile of a rapist". But if, as the extreme-right Marine Le Pen affirms, all of Paris had long been abuzz with talk of his "rather pathological relationship" with women, why wasn't Strauss-Kahn pulled up on it before in France? He had already been chastised by the IMF over one affair with a junior in 2008.

It raises the uncomfortable question in the French media and politics of two parallel worlds: what is printed, and what is behind it, gossip, and what must officially remain "unsaid".

Consensual extramarital sex is a non-story in France, part of the right to a private life protected by fearsome libel and privacy laws. Having a mistress, philandering, even routinely propositioning journalists have been brushed aside for countless political figures. "How many senior male French politicians aren't either a groper, a cheater, a charmer or a serial seducer? And it goes right to the top of the political class," sighed one news editor. "France is still a kind of monarchy that kept the aristocratic morals of the 18th century. The lord of the manor has a right to the women; the king has his mistresses." If more allegations against Strauss-Kahn come to light and lead to criminal charges, it will call into question a taboo in France about speaking out.

Tristane Banon, the novelist and journalist is, according to her lawyer, preparing to go to police alleging Strauss-Kahn sexually assaulted her in 2002. Her mother, Anne Mansouret, a senior Socialist figure, said that she advised her daughter not to file a lawsuit at the time because Strauss-Kahn was a politician with a bright future, as well as a friend of the family. But she said that even the fact that her daughter later spoke out publicly about the attack on TV had left her "traumatised" by the subsequent "harassment" in her professional life over having dared to speak out.

Her mother suggested there was a kind of "invisible barrier" put up on her work projects, as if media bosses and publishers feared the consequences of "what she could reveal". Strauss-Kahn's spokesman has previously denied the claim, and said Banon had invented the allegation to generate publicity for herself.

The journalists, Christophe Deloire and Christophe Dubois, broke a taboo in their 2006 book, Sexus Politicus, about politicians' sexual behaviour. They wrote of Strauss-Kahn's tendency to "seduction to the point of obsession", mentioning, but not naming, female journalists who had been irritated by his gestures towards them. They also referred to one senior civil servant who didn't take up his offer to "come up to his office to relax".

It seemed striking that when Strauss-Kahn left for the IMF in Washington in 2007, with many politicians privately wondering how he would cope in a puritan US which frowns upon sexual advances, only one journalist raised the issue. Brussels correspondent for Libération, Jean Quatremer, wrote on his blog: "Strauss-Kahn's only real problem is his relationship to women. Too heavy … it borderlines harassment." Strauss-Kahn's communications team asked him to take the blog down. Quatremer explained to Le Parisien that he had refused, saying if they thought it was libellous, they could sue. They did not.

In 2008, the French press began to more openly touch on the issue of Strauss-Kahn and women after the IMF investigated his affair with a junior colleague, the Hungarian economist Piroska Nagy. He was cleared of abusing his position but was forced to apologise. Nagy said she thought he had a "problem" which affected his ability to work with women. Others in France spoke out. The Socialist party MP Aurelie Filipetti recalled a "very heavy, very pressing" come-on to her by Strauss-Kahn. She said that afterwards: "I made sure I never ended up alone with him in a closed space."

The humorist Stephane Guillon went furthest in 2009, satirising Strauss-Kahn's "obsession with females" on the equivalent of Radio 4's Today programme. Strauss-Kahn accused him on air of "nastiness" and Guillon – already under fire for lampooning several political figures – was sacked shortly afterwards.

In 2006, when Strauss-Kahn failed in his bid to become the Socialist presidential candidate, part of his problem was his publicly haughty and condescending attitude to the eventual winner, Ségolène Royal.

But five years later, as Strauss-Kahn's opinion poll ratings soared and he was tipped to become president, it was clear that a saga like the Nagy affair had no effect on the electorate's view. Sexual violence is another matter entirely. In a country where the leader's sexual habits are officially ignored, allegations of attempted rape have been a severe shock.

*shrugs* The big difference here is that she actually called it rape and made a big deal of it. There must be dozens of others who just thought "well my career'll be fucked if I don't, so best just stfu". I guess the lesson is that if you don't intend to take no for an answer you should stick to people who've got a living to make inside the French political system. What's an American cleaner got to lose?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 17-05-11, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Rikers Island? Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeriously? Where the crap is he going to run to?
France? We don't extradite citizens to the USA. Rightly so given how fucked up their judicial system is...

Quote:
Sure, consent's a great principal for basing a society on. None better. Whenever I do anything that may appear contrary to the ideal it's called "making an executive decision".
I didn't say "society". I said "sex". And you got interesting grey areas such as consensual non-consent

"Consent is a vital element in all psychological play, and consent can be granted in many ways. Some employ a written form known as a "Dungeon negotiation form"; for others a simple verbal commitment is sufficient. Consent can be limited both in duration and content.

Consensual non-consensuality is a mutual agreement to be able to act as if consent has been waived. In essence it is an agreement that, subject to a safeword or other restrictions and reasonable care and common sense, consent (within defined limits) will be given in advance and with the intent of being irrevocable under normal circumstances, at times without foreknowledge of the exact actions planned. As such, it is a show of extreme trust and understanding and usually undertaken only by partners who know each other well or otherwise agree to set clear safe limits on their activities".

Technically, what I understand by the term is that such safeguards as highlighted are actually waived - otherwise this is just "consent".

The thing, with consensual non-consent, is I suspect/am pretty sure the police/justice would definitely not see it that way if the person the stuff happened to decided to complain. As the case of the homosexual men proved, even with specific consent being given and insisted upon by the 'victims', the UK justice system still takes upon itself to say they know better. I can only imagine what they do of a claim where the 'victim' said "Yeah, I had consented to whatever would happen to me and I didn't know what it'd be but, then, I never thought he/she'd do [x] and when I said 'No, no, no', he/she still went ahead"...
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Old 17-05-11, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
*shrugs* The big difference here is that she actually called it rape and made a big deal of it. There must be dozens of others who just thought "well my career'll be fucked if I don't, so best just stfu". I guess the lesson is that if you don't intend to take no for an answer you should stick to people who've got a living to make inside the French political system. What's an American cleaner got to lose?
If that's really how things happened, I am glad he's behind bars.
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Old 17-05-11, 12:46 PM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/wo...ines&emc=tha22

Questions Raised About a Code of Silence
By ELAINE SCIOLINO
Published: May 16, 2011

PARIS — The ritual follows a clear script: a scandal threatens to destroy the reputation of a powerful figure in France. Politicians say they are shocked. Friends say they are incredulous. Journalists debate whether they should have investigated rumors and revealed secrets. The dust settles. The status quo returns. Private life is protected.

When, for example, François Mitterrand was asked by a journalist during his presidency whether it was true that he had a daughter outside his marriage, he replied: “Yes, it’s true. And so what? It’s none of the public’s business.”

The French have been complicit in accepting this sort of secret-keeping: they do not enjoy ugly revelations that could tear apart the social fabric. What shocked them more than the existence of Mr. Mitterrand’s mistress and their daughter was the revelation after his death that the French state had financially supported them and even provided police protection.

Now, the arrest of Dominique Strauss-Kahn is once again challenging the assumption that the private lives of the rich, famous and powerful are off limits to public scrutiny. That the most serious accusation against Mr. Strauss-Kahn is attempted rape, and not just an indiscretion involving a consensual sexual relationship, only adds to a sense on the part of some people in France that the curtain of privacy needs to be lifted.

“We felt that we were superior to the Americans and the British by upholding the principle of protecting private life,” Pierre Haski, one of France’s leading political commentators and co-founder of the political Web site Rue89, said in an interview. “But we journalists haven’t done our job properly. We were used and abused in keeping secrets. We need to define our role in a more aggressive way — and say that not everything private is private.”

Mr. Haski said he had been wrong to withhold information in the past about French political figures that could have compromised their ability to carry out their duties.

“I knew that when Roland Dumas was foreign minister, he was romantically involved with the daughter of Syria’s defense minister,” he said. “I didn’t write it because it was a matter of his ‘private life.’ I was wrong. It had an impact on France’s foreign policy.”

He also chided himself and the French media for keeping secret that the Socialist politician Ségolène Royal and François Hollande, her longtime partner, father of her four children and head of the Socialist Party, were no longer a couple while she was running for president in 2007.

The Strauss-Kahn scandal coincides with shifts in French public life in which the codes had already begun to crack and secrets were being revealed. The personality-driven nature of the presidency of Nicolas Sarkozy has created a hunger for personality-driven, tell-all tales. Technology has made it easy to record and film private meetings and embarrassing public encounters on cellphones, contributing to a transparency that had never before existed.

But historically, the French have traded in rumors and secrets, and there are several reasons why they can be passed around in private circles but not put into public discussion.

First, the French have long been accustomed to unconfirmed stories about powerful figures and politicians. This dates from the era of the royal court — when information was power, yet had to be handled carefully. Salacious stories, whether true or not, made for good entertainment.

That makes the French tolerant of other people’s private behavior, especially sexual behavior. Private lives must not be invaded by outsiders. “To live happy, live hidden,” goes the saying by Jean-Pierre Claris de Florian, the 18th-century poet.

There was no public outcry or journalistic investigation, for example, when Mr. Sarkozy named Frédéric Mitterrand, the nephew of François Mitterrand, as minister of culture, even though he had written a memoir describing in graphic detail how he had paid for sex with “boys” in Thailand.

Marine Le Pen, now the leader of the ultra-right National Front, later pushed the matter into public view and called for his resignation, but Mr. Sarkozy supported him and he has kept his job.

Second, politicians in France are not hounded out of office for sexual indiscretions (although violence against women is another matter). Traditionally, a political man who reveals his sexual prowess is proving his vigor: he is showing his constituents that he is fully and physically capable of running the country. (That part is bullshit, as far as I can tell. There might be some 'gaulish' ho-ho-ho moment and thus tacit approval but I don't think it has anything to do with physical fitness)

During the Bill Clinton-Monica Lewinsky scandal in the United States, even some French politicians associated with Catholic causes chose to congratulate President Clinton for his strength of libido. “He loves women, this man!” Marie-Christine Boutin, a deputy in Parliament and a leader of the religious right, said. “It’s a sign of good health!”

Ms. Boutin has defended Mr. Strauss-Kahn after his arrest, suggesting that he was the victim of a trap.

Third, libel laws are so protective of private lives that the least intrusion in print or broadcasting inevitably leads to legal action and heavy fines. The French media’s fear of retribution by the powerful inhibits American-style investigative journalism.

In 2005, the weekly magazine Paris-Match published a cover photo of Cécilia Sarkozy, who became the first lady in 2007, with Richard Attias, then reputed to be her lover and now her husband. The editor, Alain Genestar, was later forced out at the magazine. Arnaud Lagardère, who controls the magazine’s publishing group, is a close friend of Mr. Sarkozy.

Finally, so many powerful figures in France — particularly men — are believed to have strayed from their marital vows that to begin publicizing them might transform the political landscape of France.

Rumors about Mr. Strauss-Kahn’s behavior have swirled through France for years. In a kind of French parlor game, journalists and authors quoted one another as a way to avoid lawsuits.

“It is our duty to stop ourselves from spreading rumors,” wrote Christophe Deloire, one of the authors of “Sexus Politicus,” a 2006 investigative book on the personal lives of leading politicians, in a guest editorial in Le Monde on Monday. “To let them spread without having the curiosity to verify them is a mistake.”

He added, “We cannot give our citizens reasons to think that we are lying to them, even by omission.”

The book relied heavily on on-the-record interviews and police reports, and was credited with breaking the taboo on discussing private life.

While investigating an alleged crime like rape is different from exposing details of someone’s private life, (Well spotted, Sherlock) there is reluctance to open the floodgates to investigations of the private lives of the powerful.

“In the U.S. if you’re found to have a mistress, you’re out,” Mr. Haski said. “If Strauss-Kahn has a mistress, I don’t care. If he has done something more serious that would affect his capacity as a public figure, that’s where the line should be drawn. We haven’t done our job properly on Strauss-Kahn. But what I fear is that this scandal could lead us into bedroom politics, which I would hate.”

---------------------------------------

I would have said: "In the U.S. if you’re found to have a mistress, you’re out and that's totally stupid. If Strauss-Kahn has a mistress, I don’t care. If he has done something more serious, that’s where the line should be drawn".

Because I guess being a rapist doesn't actually stop you from running a country, even running it well (God knows our previous Kings must have often fitted the 'rapist' bill). But I still wouldn't elect one.
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Old 17-05-11, 01:29 PM
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Bedroom politics is not exactly what we are talking about here. I agree that politicians have just as much right to a private life as other individuals. What they do or don't do in their bedroom is no one's business but themselves and their families. However, rape is an entirely different issue. If someone forces his will upon another individual, this proves a lack of character. It proves utter disrespect for other humans, and I don't believe that this is the type of politician whom we want to make decisions for us.
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Old 17-05-11, 01:37 PM
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Exactly.
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Old 17-05-11, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
France? We don't extradite citizens to the USA. Rightly so given how fucked up their judicial system is...
I daresay Sarko might make an exception...

Also, it would completely fuck his career up for good. If I was him I'd still try to talk my way out of it.

Quote:
I didn't say "society". I said "sex". And you got interesting grey areas such as consensual non-consent
Sex is an aspect of society.

Anyway, weren't you just saying that there's no such thing as rights and socialisation is a facade?

Sure, rape is bad etc. But when you come down to it people compromise on shit all the time. When I'm asked if I'll go and interview XXXXXXXXXXXX tonight, I don't say "Nooooooooooo! He lives in Ivry and it'll take hours and I want to go home and have rum punch and quesadillas and anyway you smell." Am I being forced to do it against my will? Well, kind of, since it would theoretically be bad for my career for me to refuse, but it's still pretty much a grey area.

It doesn't involve ritual purity, however, so we're cool with it.

Is consent a great legal concept and basis for civilised society? Sure. Am I going to live life with it as my guiding light? No.
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Old 17-05-11, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
I daresay Sarko might make an exception...
Yeah, there is that...

Quote:
Also, it would completely fuck his career up for good. If I was him I'd still try to talk my way out of it.
Career vs. 25 years in a US jail. Call me a coward but unless I was damn innocent, I'd run. Especially seeing as this is the US.

Quote:
Anyway, weren't you just saying that there's no such thing as rights and socialisation is a facade?
I don't think I said socialisation was a facade. Just that it wasn't 100% effective. And, yes, there are no 'rights' - As that maid found out (if the story is true). Her body belonged to the strongest person in that hotel room. But we do have privileges. One of them is that, if a man abuse his strength and force himself on a woman, the woman can use the judicial process to put him away for a good long while... Edited to add: It ought to work for any sex, of course. Replace 'man/woman' by 'person'.

Quote:
But when you come down to it people compromise on shit all the time. When I'm asked if I'll go and interview XXXXXXXXXXXX tonight, I don't say "Nooooooooooo! He lives in Ivry and it'll take hours and I want to go home and have rum punch and quesadillas and anyway you smell." Am I being forced to do it against my will? Well, kind of, since it would theoretically be bad for my career for me to refuse, but it's still pretty much a grey area.
I think you'll find out that such things are usually more or less described into the document you signed, you know, the "Employment Contract". I don't think the maid signed anything saying "And you shall have sex with guests, at their request"... (although I bet that'd be a successful hotel, if not a very clean one... ).

Quote:
It doesn't involve ritual purity, however, so we're cool with it.
People fight over working conditions all the time... Besides, yeah, sex is different. Even without a Victorian approach to it, it's seen as an important thing.

Quote:
Is consent a great legal concept and basis for civilised society? Sure. Am I going to live life with it as my guiding light? No.
If you're planning on attacking me next time I am in Paris, please let me know in advance. I'd like a fighting chance to defend my virtue...
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Old 17-05-11, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Career vs. 25 years in a US jail. Call me a coward but unless I was damn innocent, I'd run. Especially seeing as this is the US.
I don't think he'll go down, do you? He just has to say she looked like she may have had an abortion at some point in the past and a US judge'll let him of (at least, as is my understanding of the law).

Quote:
I don't think I said socialisation was a facade. Just that it wasn't 100% effective. And, yes, there are no 'rights' - As that maid found out (if the story is true). Her body belonged to the strongest person in that hotel room. But we do have privileges. One of them is that, if a man abuse his strength and force himself on a woman, the woman can use the judicial process to put him away for a good long while... Edited to add: It ought to work for any sex, of course. Replace 'man/woman' by 'person'.
If there's all this moral outrage that's going to bring down his career then clearly here and now she does have rights. If not no one would care. They're dragging him through the courts to redress the balance, not just for the hell of it.

Quote:
I think you'll find out that such things are usually more or less described into the document you signed, you know, the "Employment Contract". I don't think the maid signed anything saying "And you shall have sex with guests, at their request"... (although I bet that'd be a successful hotel, if not a very clean one... ).
I once stayed in a hotel like that - accidentally, I rush to add. I hadn't realised when I booked it online.

Actually I'm doing this for free as a voluntary thing so I'm even more of a sap than I look - it's not even related to my official work. But the point still stands - I have to make a good job of this so it's successful and I can put it on my CV.

Quote:
People fight over working conditions all the time... Besides, yeah, sex is different. Even without a Victorian approach to it, it's seen as an important thing.
Well it shouldn't be.

Quote:
If you're planning on attacking me next time I am in Paris, please let me know in advance. I'd like a fighting chance to defend my virtue...
Haha - if I tell you then it won't be a surprise, now...
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