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The Blackburn MP has called on the Pakistani community to be "more open" about the issue after describing about a "specific problem" involving young Pakistani men's attitudes towards white girls. He was speaking after two Asian men were jailed after subjected a series of vulnerable girls to rapes and sexual assaults. Abid Mohammed Saddique, 27, was jailed for a minimum of 11 years at Nottingham Crown Court and Mohammed Romaan Liaqat, 28, was told he must serve at least eight years before being considered for release. The men were the ring leaders of a gang that befriended girls aged from 12 to 18 in the Derby area and groomed them for sex. Thirteen men were charged in relation to Operation Retriever, which Derbyshire Police set up, and 11 stood trial charged with offences relating to 26 alleged victims. Out of the original 13, a total of nine swere convicted of sexual offences. Related Articles Sex gang hunted teens 25 Nov 2010 Asian sex gangs 'cover-up' 05 Jan 2011 Salman Taseer: Pakistan must face up to the enemy within08 Jan 2011 Pakistan's rape victim who dared to fight back08 Jan 2011 Manchester bomb plot students were planning co-ordinated attacks in New York and Scandanavia08 Jan 2011 Author of paedophilia guide to face charges in US08 Jan 2011 Speaking to the BBC's Newsnight programme, Mr Straw said: "Pakistanis, let's be clear, are not the only people who commit sexual offences, and overwhelmingly the sex offenders' wings of prisons are full of white sex offenders. "But there is a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men ... who target vulnerable young white girls. "We need to get the Pakistani community to think much more clearly about why this is going on and to be more open about the problems that are leading to a number of Pakistani heritage men thinking it is OK to target white girls in this way." The judge said he did not believe the crimes were "racially aggravated", but Mr Straw said he thought vulnerable white girls were at risk of being targeted by some Asian men. "These young men are in a western society, in any event, they act like any other young men, they're fizzing and popping with testosterone, they want some outlet for that, but Pakistani heritage girls are off-limits and they are expected to marry a Pakistani girl from Pakistan, typically," he said. "So they then seek other avenues and they see these young women, white girls who are vulnerable, some of them in care ... who they think are easy meat. "And because they're vulnerable they ply them with gifts, they give them drugs, and then of course they're trapped." Police in Derbyshire have insisted that the sexual abuse case should not be treated as a racial issue. The sentencing of Saddique and Romaan came a day after Prime Minister David Cameron said "cultural sensitivities" should not hinder police action in such cases. Speaking on Friday to The Times during a visit to Oldham, Mr Cameron said: "We should not be put off by cultural sensitivities or anything like that. Pursue the evidence, pursue criminality wherever it leads."

Geez. This is depressing. Not so much because both sides of British politics are apparently represented by leering 19th century klansmen who see ethnics as priapic threats to their patriarchal authority and females as property, but because they consider that expressing such thoughts is likely to win them votes.

God I'm glad I don't live in that fucking dump any more.

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Huh?

The analysis sounds pretty spot on.

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"These young men are in a western society, in any event, they act like any other young men, they're fizzing and popping with testosterone, they want some outlet for that, but Pakistani heritage girls are off-limits and they are expected to marry a Pakistani girl from Pakistan, typically," he said.

I'm willing to bet these ethnic boroughs are just like most others around the world. Which means closed in society, distrusting of outsiders which leads to dehumanizing them, and since the odds of being caught committing crimes within a community like that are pretty good (just because people know doesn't mean they'll act on it though or act within view of the greater public authority) they look for victims elsewhere. And since they're doing it to "others" it might not be looked upon with the same level of contempt if people do find out.

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Pakistanis, let's be clear, are not the only people who commit sexual offences, and overwhelmingly the sex offenders' wings of prisons are full of white sex offenders. "But there is a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men ... who target vulnerable young white girls.

In other words, "Well it's okay when we rape kids for fine, upstanding British reasons, after all they're our property aren't they? And no doubt if the negroes feel like raping their kids that's their business. We can't have them laying their filthy hands on white women though. That would upset the natural order of things."

There's been one high-profile incident involving Pakistanis. There are loads involving white guys (or Pakistani-on-Pakistani) that you never hear about.

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Too many of us treat young white women as trash

The case in Derby has revealed some truly unpleasant attitudes to the status of young women

o Barbara Ellen
o The Observer, Sunday 9 January 2011


Is Jack Straw right: are white girls viewed by some Pakistani men as "easy meat"? He spoke after the sentencing of Abid Mohammed Saddique and Mohammed Romaan Liaqat, ringleaders of a group that targeted girls between 12 and 18 in the Derby area, grooming them for sex.

Straw said that this was noticeable in his constituency, Blackburn: "There is a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men… who target vulnerable young white girls." Mohammed Shafiq, of Muslim youth group, the Ramadhan Foundation, called it racism. "These young men do not see white girls as equal, as valuable, of high moral standing as their own daughters, and their own sisters, which is wrong."

Elsewhere, there was talk of a "conspiracy of silence", a politically correct muzzling of this issue. What no one is saying is that if Asian boys view white girls as drunken, worthless, sub-human trash, then, frankly, so does much of non-Asian Britain. In recent years, haven't we all become rather too comfortable with seeing girls portrayed like this?

Of course such victims are targeted. However, far more significant than colour is the fact that many of them are in care and, therefore, more vulnerable generally. Elsewhere, the supposedly all-important "Asian" element doesn't bear much scrutiny.

The authors of the widely quoted "on-street grooming" research have already expressed concern that their limited case samples have led to racial generalisations. Straw talks of young Asian men being like any others, "fizzing and popping with testosterone, but Pakistani girls are off limits", as if this weren't true of all young males, fizzing, popping, exploding, whatever, who find that some girls are sexually available, others not, for myriad reasons.

Likewise Mohammed Shafiq's comment about Asian men not viewing white women as equal or valuable as "their own daughters, their own sisters". Well, join the chauvinist club, Asian guys. It seems to me that many men don't view females outside their immediate family circle or acquaintance as "equal, valuable or of high moral standing".

Whenever sex workers are murdered, there is an effort to frame them as daughters, sisters and mothers, precisely because this is the easiest way to humanise them.

Even if Asian men tend to view white girls as easier meat, then where have they learned all this? Not only on the streets where they live, but also in the images surrounding them. There's endless coverage of drunken "ladettes" out on the lash, young girls being sick into gutters, lying in streets, smoking, getting pregnant, looking gormless, telling people with research clipboards that "all they wanna be is famous, innit".

In the vast majority of cases, the girls featured are white. Not because only white girls spend a period of their youth making mistakes, living and learning, but presumably because it is less tricky to use pictures of white girls. Images of young black girls making mistakes, living and learning, could so easily look a bit racist. Therefore, any coverage of them must be framed in more sombre reportage, which to me seems racist in itself.

Likewise, Asian girls mainly crop up when there are arranged marriages to fret over. All of this when figures show that all girls, regardless of race, tend to do better than boys at school and presumably, therefore, are pretty similar in other ways too.

Are all non-white girls so much better behaved or is this inverted racial stereotyping, evocative of a society that's become far too comfortable with images of young, female, white trash, to the extent that many white and black boys probably also think they're "easier"? As the abuse in Derby involved children as young as 12, something even darker was going on. However, in the main, if young Asian guys have concluded that white girls are "easy meat", then there could be a lot more to this than good old handy "cultural differences".

Too many of us treat young white women as trash | Barbara Ellen | Comment is free | The Observer

Originally Posted by Zichao

In other words, "Well it's okay when we rape kids for fine, upstanding British reasons, after all they're our property aren't they? And no doubt if the negroes feel like raping their kids that's their business. We can't have them laying their filthy hands on white women though. That would upset the natural order of things." There's been one high-profile incident involving Pakistanis. There are loads involving white guys (or Pakistani-on-Pakistani) that you never hear about.

Or... this is a new trend (pakis + white girls) with the added twist that bad people use the internets to kidnap and rape young girls. So it gets reported and the social dynamic inside closed in communities is what it is and thus it gets reported on since its part of the story.

I bet if you looked you'd find past news stories about white guys using social media to lure young white girls into their vans too.

If I was going to pick anything out to critique it would be the bit about "but since their own women are off limits..." I'm sure its true, just like its true that within the greater society its not OK to rape women... but to mention it in the context of the story really pushes the notion that the rest of the community is totally complacent in it since its only wrong to rape Paki heritage girls apparently.

I obviously don't buy that reasoning as the deciding factor even though some elements are sure to exist within any given community. I think its more likely that these men targeted white girls outside their own communities because they figured they had a better chance of getting away with it. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by contracycle

Too many of us treat young white women as trash. What no one is saying is that if Asian boys view white girls as drunken, worthless, sub-human trash, then, frankly, so does much of non-Asian Britain. In recent years, haven't we all become rather too comfortable with seeing girls portrayed like this?

Portrayed like this? Or are they like this?

English girls certainly have a bit of a reputation and I think it is a rather justified one. Yes, of course, plenty are decent, proper blablabla but there are enough of them who are "drunken "ladettes" out on the lash, [...] being sick into gutters, lying in streets, smoking, getting pregnant, looking gormless, telling people with research clipboards that "all they wanna be is famous, innit"..." to warrant the cliche...

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Of course such victims are targeted.

Err. Victims? Targeted? Hold on a sec. Did anyone put a gun to their face? Did someone force them to drink or take drugs? Did anyone abuse them once they were passed out? If not, I don't think the term "victim" apply.

As to targeted... Well, you know, when I go into a nightclub, I don't necessarily try it out with the most snobbish just-don't-talk-to-me looking girl in there. Usually, I'd try my luck with a more "friendly", "approachable", "open-looking" girl... That's targeting too, you know...

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... who find that some girls are sexually available, others not, for myriad reasons.

Ethnic background being one of those reasons. In France, girls of arabic descent are raised more strictly than franco-french ones. Culture matters, what a surprise.

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It seems to me that many men don't view females outside their immediate family circle or acquaintance as "equal, valuable or of high moral standing".

Fuck off, why don't you? So there is no gradation within chauvinism. I've been called chauvinist, not least by people on this forum. I still wouldn't behave the way I've seen Saudis motherfuckers behave in China White in London. I truly truly hate these guys.

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Not because only white girls spend a period of their youth making mistakes, living and learning, but presumably because it is less tricky to use pictures of white girls. Images of young black girls making mistakes, living and learning, could so easily look a bit racist.

Well, that's what comparative studies were invented for. I suspect ethnic cultures in general are a bit more conservative than the white english one. So let's test it out. What % of black young women abuse drinks to the point of throwing up in the streets? How often? Same questions for Asian girls. Oriental girls. Irish girls. And english girls. C'mon. Call your anthropology department.

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All of this when figures show that all girls, regardless of race, tend to do better than boys at school...

But race (and associated class and cultural background) does matter when it comes to school performance. So how do, say, Black girls compare to Indian ones?

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... and presumably, therefore, are pretty similar in other ways too.

Even if girls were comparable in school results (and I bet they aren't - even if I suspect that differences may be less accentuated than for boys), sexual mores are a totally different topic. Especially for girls, who suffer far more than boys from their cultural background misconceptions and are less likely to escape them easily.

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Are all non-white girls so much better behaved or is this inverted racial stereotyping?

You can't win, can you? Either you're racist when you're pointing out that Black boys are behind white boys in school results or you're still a racist when you're pointing out that asian girls are more conservative (willingly or not) than their white counterparts...

My bet is that non-white girls are indeed somewhat better behaved (not sure how the author would define "so much better". Put some fucking data and figures on your fucking concepts, will you?)

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However, in the main, if young Asian guys have concluded that white girls are "easy meat", then there could be a lot more to this than good old handy "cultural differences".

Like the fact that they are objectively "easier meat"? Shock, horror!

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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais

Portrayed like this? Or are they like this?

Well, you tell me.

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English girls certainly have a bit of a reputation and I think it is a rather justified one. Yes, of course, plenty are decent, proper blablabla but there are enough of them who are "drunken "ladettes" out on the lash, [...] being sick into gutters, lying in streets, smoking, getting pregnant, looking gormless, telling people with research clipboards that "all they wanna be is famous, innit"..." to warrant the cliche...[/q Err. Victims? Targeted? Hold on a sec. Did anyone put a gun to their face? Did someone force them to drink or take drugs? Did anyone abuse them once they were passed out? If not, I don't think the term "victim" apply. As to targeted... Well, you know, when I go into a nightclub, I don't necessarily try it out with the most snobbish just-don't-talk-to-me looking girl in there. Usually, I'd try my luck with a more "friendly", "approachable", "open-looking" girl... That's targeting too, you know... Ethnic background being one of those reasons. In France, girls of arabic descent are raised more strictly than franco-french ones. Culture matters, what a surprise. Fuck off, why don't you? So there is no gradation within chauvinism. I've been called chauvinist, not least by people on this forum. I still wouldn't behave the way I've seen Saudis motherfuckers behave in China White in London. I truly truly hate these guys. Well, that's what comparative studies were invented for. I suspect ethnic cultures in general are a bit more conservative than the white english one. So let's test it out. What % of black young women abuse drinks to the point of throwing up in the streets? How often? Same questions for Asian girls. Oriental girls. Irish girls. And english girls. C'mon. Call your anthropology department. But race (and associated class and cultural background) does matter when it comes to school performance. So how do, say, Black girls compare to Indian ones? Even if girls were comparable in school results (and I bet they aren't - even if I suspect that differences may be less accentuated than for boys), sexual mores are a totally different topic. Especially for girls, who suffer far more than boys from their cultural background misconceptions and are less likely to escape them easily. You can't win, can you? Either you're racist when you're pointing out that Black boys are behind white boys in school results or you're still a racist when you're pointing out that asian girls are more conservative (willingly or not) than their white counterparts... My bet is that non-white girls are indeed somewhat better behaved (not sure how the author would define "so much better". Put some fucking data and figures on your fucking concepts, will you?) Like the fact that they are objectively "easier meat"? Shock, horror!

Originally Posted by Zichao

In other words, "Well it's okay when we rape kids for fine, upstanding British reasons, after all they're our property aren't they? And no doubt if the negroes feel like raping their kids that's their business. We can't have them laying their filthy hands on white women though. That would upset the natural order of things."

There is some of that going on as well in the politicos reactions. But that doesn't invalidate AIS and my own point.

Again, you can see it in France with the Arabic-descent kids. It's pretty obvious.

NB: Pakistani heritage men?! That;s a new expression for me!

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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais

Portrayed like this? Or are they like this?

Well, you tell me.

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English girls certainly have a bit of a reputation and I think it is a rather justified one. Yes, of course, plenty are decent, proper blablabla but there are enough of them who are "drunken "ladettes" out on the lash, [...] being sick into gutters, lying in streets, smoking, getting pregnant, looking gormless, telling people with research clipboards that "all they wanna be is famous, innit"..." to warrant the cliche...

Sure. And do these behaviours make them "trash"? Because in boys this is basically just treated as high-spirited youth.

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Fuck off, why don't you? So there is no gradation within chauvinism. I've been called chauvinist, not least by people on this forum. I still wouldn't behave the way I've seen Saudis motherfuckers behave in China White in London. I truly truly hate these guys.

Sure, but thats doesn't mean its something only those "others" do. I've remarked before on the hypocrisy of boys threatening to take measures if someone looks at or tries to date their sister; while of course being just as abusive towards other women themselves. In fact they react that way precisely because they are projecting their own general attitudes to women on to the other guy.

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My bet is that non-white girls are indeed somewhat better behaved (not sure how the author would define "so much better". Put some fucking data and figures on your fucking concepts, will you?)

In large part, I agree with you; a strictly raised Muslim girl is much less likely to accept an offer of alcohol in the first place. But I don;t think this serves to undermine the point that Ellen was making; look on "laddettes" with horror is hardly unique to Pakistani men, and partakes of a much broader hypocrisy regarding womens behaviour.

Originally Posted by contracycle

Well, you tell me.

Indeed I am.

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Sure. And do these behaviours make them "trash"? Because in boys this is basically just treated as high-spirited youth.

I'll give you that the media is a bit more tolerant when it's boys doing it. A bit. I think people are getting fed up of vomiting youth and yelling assholes at 12am, no matter the gender. I would certainly not describe a young man throwing his guts out on my pavement 'high spirited'. My epithets would be a bit more colourful, shall we say...

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I've remarked before on the hypocrisy of boys threatening to take measures if someone looks at or tries to date their sister; while of course being just as abusive towards other women themselves. In fact they react that way precisely because they are projecting their own general attitudes to women on to the other guy.

I quite agree. I would only qualify this by saying they're probably not wrong about 'the other guy'. If they're assholes, the 'other guy' (from the same culture) is likely to be too...

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But I don;t think this serves to undermine the point that Ellen was making; look on "laddettes" with horror is hardly unique to Pakistani men, and partakes of a much broader hypocrisy regarding womens behaviour.

Well, then, she should explain that hypocrisy and write about it (as you yourself just hinted about by stating that men get away with the same behaviour) rather than pretend that white english girls are no trashier than ethnic girls, a claim I think is factually wrong/very dubious. I don't have specific data beyond my own limited experience but I am not the one making unlikely claims...

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