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Old 12-12-10, 10:42 PM
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Student protests: pressure mounts on Met police chief

Sir Paul Stephenson faces increasing pressure after footage emerges of a police officer not wearing ID at this week's protests


* Adam Gabbatt and Polly Curtis
* guardian.co.uk, Sunday 12 December 2010 19.10 GMT


Metropolitan police commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson faces mounting pressure after footage emerged showing an officer policing Thursday's student protests not wearing identification.

Following the G20 protests last year, during which Ian Tomlinson died after being pushed to the ground by a police officer not wearing ID, Stephenson said it was "absolutely unacceptable" for officers to cover or remove their shoulder tags bearing identification numbers.

However, a video taken by one of the protesters at the London demonstration clearly shows one officer not displaying her numerals.

The footage emerged as reports said Stephenson had offered to resign in the wake of this week's protests, with the Met heavily criticised after a protester was left requiring brain surgery due to allegedly being struck by a police baton, and protesters were able to attack a car carrying Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall.

Today the home secretary, Theresa May, confirmed there was "contact" between Camilla and one of the protesters, reportedly involving the wife of the heir-to-the-throne being poked with a stick.

May, who insisted she had not considered resigning in the wake of the incidents, would not rule out using water cannons to control protesters in the future, insisting "it is right that we look across the board at all the options that are available".

Video footage showing the police officer not wearing identification was recorded by Chris Dowdeswell, a 27-year-old web developer from Gloucester, and posted to Youtube.

"We were in the kettle from the beginning on Parliament Square," Dowdeswell said.

"We were walking to the different police lines trying to find out what was going on, and someone told me we should go and film this one officer who was without her lapel numbers, without her identifying marks.

"When we questioned her at first, this is just before we started filming, she said: 'I'm a human being, not a fucking number'."

Dowdeswell, who runs the Brutal Cops website which aims to draw attention to police corruption and violence, said after he began filming the officer she "looked awkward and embarrassed".

Shown the footage by the Guardian yesterday, a spokesman for the Met said the force would investigate why the officer was not wearing her identification tags.

"All officers were briefed before the demonstration that their shoulder numbers should remain visible at all times," he said.

"The demonstration command team is now aware of this footage. The Directorate of Professional Standards has been informed and steps are being taken to identify the officer in question, and obtain an explanation."

The Met commissioner also promised to take "proportionate" disciplinary action against those officers who did not carry their ID badges at those demonstrations.

His comments were echoed by the chief inspector of constabulary, Denis O'Connor, who said it was "utterly unacceptable" for officers not wearing their numerals. "I would expect people in public order and other situations to wear their numbers … it acts as a good check and balance," he said.

A spokesman for Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary – the government body which assesses the performance of the police – said it could not launch an investigation of its own accord, but would have to be commissioned, in this case by either the Met or the Home Office.

The Sunday Times today reported that Stephenson offered to resign after Prince Charles' Rolls Royce was attacked on Oxford Street, a source telling the newspaper that the commissioner had "made it clear that if [the palace] thought he should resign, he would do so".

Theresa May, who is due to make a statement to MPs regarding the policing of Thursday's protests today (Mon), described the incident as "incredibly regrettable" in an interview with Sky News and praised Charles and Camilla for fulfilling their engagement.

"The Metropolitan Police are looking into the details of that incident to find out exactly how it arose and of course they will be wanting to learn the lessons from that," she said.

Police were also criticised after a 20-year-old student, Alfie Meadows, underwent a three-hour operation to treat bleeding on the brain after allegedly being hit on the head by a truncheon. Yesterday his mother, Susan Matthews, claimed that when Meadows was taken to Chelsea and Westminster hospital police objected to him being treated there as it was being used to treat injured officers.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission has since launched an investigation into the incident. Meadows, a philosophy student at Middlesex University, is said to have so-far made a good recovery from the operation, with his mother, Susan Matthews, saying "he's improving day by day".

Today police released images of 14 people they want to speak to following clashes during the demonstration, asking the public to help identify those pictured. The appeal came as Charlie Gilmour, son of Pink Floyd guitarist Dave, was arrested on suspicion of violent disorder and attempted criminal damage after he was photographed swinging from a flag attached to the Cenotaph on Whitehall on Thursday.

He is the 35th person to have been arrested following involvement in Thursday's protest. A total of 176 people have been arrested in the four protests so far.

Student protests: pressure mounts on Met police chief | UK news | The Guardian
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 13-12-10, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by AnonymousIdiotSavant View Post
I like this comparison of citizens publicly demonstrating their displeasure with austerity measures to terrorist murdering people.
That's a bit of a transformation on my comparison. I was comparing the tactics of the police and the Army, not the protestors and the guerrillas. Oh and by the way, I call them 'guerrillas'. 'Terrorists' is more subjective, although used by western armies to ramp up the hatred.
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Old 13-12-10, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Once again, by whom? It has come in for a great deal of criticism over the last few years, as it has become a standard tactic. Plus you understimate the willingness of people to blame the victim and to assume that someone getting beaten by the cops must have deserved it; kettling, precisely becuase it is a collective punishment, raises different questions.
That newspaper guy who died in the anti-G8 one provoked a hell of a lot more annoyance for the police than the questions surrounding kettling...

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The difference being that it only matters while the demonstration is ongoing; it is not a war in which a demonstrator is subsequently going to go home and try to set fire to the local police station.
The point remains that it is pretty hard to identify who does what, when and how...

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it is one of the most important components of the checks and balances of our western "democracies".
If you say so. Me, I tend to see lots of people protesting for the maintance of their vested interests... no matter what. Or generalistic stuff like "anti-globalisation" that is so wide as to be meaningless. OTOH, I got nothing against street parties. Notting Hill Carnival has gotten a bit too big to be fun anymore but it's a cool concept. I tend to like gay prides. The one I say in Amsterdam was awesome!
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Old 17-12-10, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
That newspaper guy who died in the anti-G8 one provoked a hell of a lot more annoyance for the police than the questions surrounding kettling...
1) he died as a consequence of the kettling
2) only becuase he did actually die,a nd
3) only because there was private footage showing this to be the case

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The point remains that it is pretty hard to identify who does what, when and how...
And it is pretty clear they are not even bothering to try.

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If you say so. Me, I tend to see lots of people protesting for the maintance of their vested interests... no matter what.
I certainly agree; one of those interests being the checks and balances in our democracies.

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Or generalistic stuff like "anti-globalisation" that is so wide as to be meaningless.
To you maybe, there is quite enough in print to be quite precise as to its meaning if you bothered to read any of it.
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Old 17-12-10, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
1) he died as a consequence of the kettling.
I thought he died coz he got hit in the wrong place...

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2) only because he did actually die...
Yep. And open street battles may be more likely to result in deaths than kettling...

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3) only because there was private footage showing this to be the case
I don't think anyone doubted the guy is indeed dead...

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And it is pretty clear they are not even bothering to try.
In Afghanistan, you want them to recognise the impossibility of the task and get out and here you want them to try despite all odds being against them? It's not very coherent. The simple truth is that you are personally perfectly happy to exchange some level of property damage and even a few cops or two being hurt for the pleasure of seeing crowds in the street singing vaguely marxist-inspired slogans...

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To you maybe, there is quite enough in print to be quite precise as to its meaning if you bothered to read any of it.
Yeah, I am just an economist. I have no idea what 'globalisation' could possibly mean... and, potentially, what anti-globalisation might mean in theoretically sound theories/models. D'uh!
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Old 17-12-10, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
I thought he died coz he got hit in the wrong place...
Is there a right place to get hit?

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Yep. And open street battles may be more likely to result in deaths than kettling...
Only if kettling doesn't provoke battles, which is my point.

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I don't think anyone doubted the guy is indeed dead...
But at first the police claimed he had been hurt by other protesters.

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In Afghanistan, you want them to recognise the impossibility of the task and get out and here you want them to try despite all odds being against them?
I have already explained the difference, and I have already allowed for some margin of error in police charges and the like. What I'm pointing out is that pre-emptive kettling neither considers whether an offence has actually been committed or who committed it.

This isn't really as hard as you suggest. The traditional masked up, black-clad anarchist isn't at all hard to distinguish from the average member of the crowd. And a fight in one place does not implicate thousands of people in another place. The argument to difficulty is spurious.

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The simple truth is that you are personally perfectly happy to exchange some level of property damage and even a few cops or two being hurt for the pleasure of seeing crowds in the street singing vaguely marxist-inspired slogans...
You're imaginging motive.

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Yeah, I am just an economist. I have no idea what 'globalisation' could possibly mean...
That is indeed what you said. I know what it means, Wikipedia knows what it means,
Amazon knows what it means Amazon knows what it means
.
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Old 18-12-10, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Is there a right place to get hit?
Yep, there is a preferential order. The place you don't die is better than the place you die...

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Only if kettling doesn't provoke battles, which is my point.
OK. And does kettling provoke battles? As i said, the two I've seen were peaceful. Look, let's get some data. Kettling is a fairly recent tactic. There were demos before (anti-globalisation stuff at the g-20s in Canada/Seattle or Italy etc etc). Let's get some numbers on casualties and property damage in a before/after picture. And let's decide on objective grounds what is best...

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But at first the police claimed he had been hurt by other protesters.
So? I am not really interested in the incident itself. I am just pointing out that deaths do you a lot more PR damage than kettling...

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I have already explained the difference, and I have already allowed for some margin of error in police charges and the like. What I'm pointing out is that pre-emptive kettling neither considers whether an offence has actually been committed or who committed it.
Indeed not. It's (trying) to work on a prevention/pre-emptive fashion...

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This isn't really as hard as you suggest. The traditional masked up, black-clad anarchist isn't at all hard to distinguish from the average member of the crowd.
Except that normal members of the public are also dressing up like that. YOU told me it was normal coz, well, what with the police filming everyone...

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The argument to difficulty is spurious.
I am sure you think that's true. I bet the police and politicians have a different view. Me, I am willing to look at the data and decide. But, theoretically at least, I can see their problem...

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You're imaginging motive.
Well, you're the one who think demos are part and parcel of our democratic soul and absolutely necessary to the check and balance thingy...

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That is indeed what you said.
No, not really....

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I know what it means, Wikipedia knows what it means.
Does it?

"Participants base their criticisms on a number of related ideas. What is shared is that participants stand in opposition to large, multi-national corporations having unregulated political power and to the powers exercised through trade agreements and deregulated financial markets. Specifically, corporations are accused of seeking to maximize profit at the expense of sabotaging work safety conditions and standards, labor hiring and compensation standards, environmental conservation principles, and the integrity of national legislative authority, independence and sovereignty".

Forget that most multi-nationals by and large respect the laws of the countries they operate in... And represent a small percentage of the economic activity... And that countries like China, India, Brazil and many others SE Asia and LatAm and African countries have see their standard of living rising as they adopted more market oriented mechanisms...

The least that can be said is that the views above lack nuances or realism. It's just the equivalent of a teenage rebellion or midlife crisis...

"In light of the economic gap between rich and poor countries, movement adherents claim “free trade” without measures in place to protect the environment and the health and well being of workers will contribute only to the strengthening the power of industrialized nations (often termed the "North" in opposition to the developing world's "South")."

that's why we got soaring unemployment and China has foreign reserves in excess of $2 T... Not to mention Gvts that are effectively broke. Global trade/globalisation worked so well for the North and so badly for the South...

Etc. There are good theories to criticise what is going on in this world. I've certainly pointed them out and criticised things myself. But, here, most of it is just "I absoluely hate what's going on in the world even if I don't really understand any of it and I am going to scream my lungs out that there are vast elite conspiracies to keep me/the brown people down, regardless of reality"...
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 18-12-10, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Yep, there is a preferential order. The place you don't die is better than the place you die...
It's just very difficult top predict.


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OK. And does kettling provoke battles? As i said, the two I've seen were peaceful.

Every time I have been in them, there have been such attempts. On this most recent demo, some people are supposed to have brought a battering ram with them for the purpose. Almost every report I have seen non the experience confirms that the mood gets more hostile.

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Look, let's get some data. Kettling is a fairly recent tactic. There were demos before (anti-globalisation stuff at the g-20s in Canada/Seattle or Italy etc etc). Let's get some numbers on casualties and property damage in a before/after picture. And let's decide on objective grounds what is best...
I think you're going to have a tough time finding hard data and constructing menaingful comparisons between differenht demos.

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So? I am not really interested in the incident itself. I am just pointing out that deaths do you a lot more PR damage than kettling...
And for nth time I ask, in whose eyes?

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Indeed not. It's (trying) to work on a prevention/pre-emptive fashion...
... which is tantamount to banning protest.

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Except that normal members of the public are also dressing up like that. YOU told me it was normal coz, well, what with the police filming everyone...
Eh? I wasn;t justifying arresting people just becuase they dress wrong. I was pointing out that it is easy to tell who is involved and who is simply standing around a hundred meters away.

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I am sure you think that's true. I bet the police and politicians have a different view. Me, I am willing to look at the data and decide. But, theoretically at least, I can see their problem...
Tell me, who do the police and politicians work for?

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Well, you're the one who think demos are part and parcel of our democratic soul and absolutely necessary to the check and balance thingy...
Obviously.

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Does it?
Yes.

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Forget that most multi-nationals by and large respect the laws of the countries they operate in...
.. becuase they had a hand in writing them.

[quote]
And represent a small percentage of the economic activity... [/quiote]

... but a large proportion of extracted surplus.

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And that countries like China, India, Brazil and many others SE Asia and LatAm and African countries have see their standard of living rising as they adopted more market oriented mechanisms...
I'm amazed anyone can still advance such a comprehensively destroyed argument in the modern day. Did the entire 90's pass you by?

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The least that can be said is that the views above lack nuances or realism. It's just the equivalent of a teenage rebellion or midlife crisis...
Hahahaha! Spoken like the comnmitted edealogue.

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Etc. There are good theories to criticise what is going on in this world. I've certainly pointed them out and criticised things myself. But, here, most of it is just "I absoluely hate what's going on in the world even if I don't really understand any of it and I am going to scream my lungs out that there are vast elite conspiracies to keep me/the brown people down, regardless of reality"...
Which is, of couirse, nonsense, mere character assasination and dogmatic unwilloingfness to engage with criticism. And thus it is indeed clear that you don't know what anti-Globalization is, and don't want to either.
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