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Old 18-09-10, 10:42 AM
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To make the whole conversation shorter: What Z said. In greater details:

Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
But "legal" is just the position held by a majority of sellers. It's a market action like any other.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here, actually.

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I've read stuff to the contrary.
My info comes from what was done when the French went from a 39 hours week to a 35 one. Basically, the lower the income, the more resistant people were to getting it cut in line with time reduction. Which makes sense if you link that to the satiety research we've seen saying that happiness does not increase much with money above $50k. People below that will tend to want the money, people above the extra time...

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But why would that be reasonable for them and unreasonable for us? The whole point of "flexibility" is to reduce our wages.
Nope. Well, yes. Wages might be reduced but income would stay stable/go up. That's the idea. Minimum wages and stuff were and are just tools to allow people to have an income to live.

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It seems obvious to me that the system produces these effects, and that they are contrary to the interests of the vast majority. Why should I be expected to endorse a system that actively seeks to make my life worse?
As I said, the system doesn't seek anything. But, as agreed, the present conditions are not good for labour. OTOH, as you pointed out, when labour suffers, usually, this backfires on capital/profit. What need to be done is to make sure that, through cooperation, the legal framework make the system works for everybody - Chinese included.

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I'm just pointing out that this is a case of getting hoist by your own petard. They're playing the game on the rules you support, but it seems you don't like the results.
No, that's the point. They don't play the game by the rules I support.
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Old 18-09-10, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
I don't understand what you're trying to say here, actually.
Well there you go.


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People below that will tend to want the money, people above the extra time...
No doubt.

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Nope. Well, yes. Wages might be reduced but income would stay stable/go up. That's the idea.
No it isn't. Being able to hire and fire, or extendhours, is intended to make companies more profitable. This says nothing about individual incomes.

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As I said, the system doesn't seek anything.
I disagree. Our systems is every bit as focussed on producing benefits for the ruling minority as any, and totally uininterested in the welfare of the majority.

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No, that's the point. They don't play the game by the rules I support.
But they do.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 18-09-10, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
And those who want to keep them are arguing that my quality of life should be sacrificed in favour of theirs. Hard to feel any working class solidarity when there's a good section of the working class that's intent on ripping you off.
That is not at all what they are arguing. They are arguing that your entitelements, as well as theirs, should be protected.
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Old 18-09-10, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Well there you go.
And then you complain that Lucas don't explain himself...

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No it isn't. Being able to hire and fire, or extendhours, is intended to make companies more profitable. This says nothing about individual incomes.
Sure. But that's what i am saying: There are other tools to maintain the income of low skilled/low productivity workers other than a high minimum wage that creates distorsion/arbitrage between workers and/or can discourage employment...

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But they do.
I can play that game too: Oh, but they don't. And I actually have the data to back that up.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 18-09-10, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
That is not at all what they are arguing. They are arguing that your entitlements, as well as theirs, should be protected.
Well, if that's true, all they got to say is how they're going to finance their retirements and mine. Coz, so far, I don't see anything of the sort... I see just what Zichao said... Guys that don't mind screwing me in order to keep theirs...
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