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Old 08-09-10, 07:49 AM
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Default Gender Pay Gap Underestimates Economic Inequality

Gender Pay Gap Underestimates Economic Inequality
by Joan Williams

The gender pay gap is standard measure of women's economic inequality. At the dawn of second-wave feminism, it was 59 cents: women earned 59 cents for every dollar men earned. Today it's up to 77 cents, according to the National Committee on Pay Equity. That's progress, right? Here's even more rosy news: women without children now earn over 90 percent of men's wages. So maybe it is time to stop worrying about women and economics.

Not so fast. Let's start with the 90 percent statistic, which describes childless women at age thirty. Conservatives like to point to that one, concluding that what ails mothers is not discrimination but their own choices.

In fact, I have argued, what the 90 percent statistic really means is that women, if they want equality, should plan to die childless at thirty. Such women have earnings nearly as high as men's because most have not hit either of the two major forms of workplace gender bias.

The single strongest bias is the maternal wall. Motherhood triggers powerful assumptions that mothers are less competent and committed to their jobs. "I had a baby, not a lobotomy," protested a Boston lawyer, voicing the experience of many who find that, upon their return from maternity leave, they are given less work, no work or dead-end assignments. The resulting bias is a powerful drag on women's prospects: mothers are 79 percent less likely to be hired, 100 percent less likely to be promoted, offered an average of a whopping $11,000 less in salary, and held to higher performance and punctuality standards than men, according to a study by Shelley Correll and co-authors.

Most women at age thirty haven't hit the other major form of gender bias either: the glass ceiling. Glass ceiling bias reflects, first, that qualities associated with leadership—assertiveness, self-confidence, directive behavior -- are linked with masculinity. So women who exhibit them often are seen as socially clueless. To compound the problem, glass ceiling bias also means that women often have to prove themselves over and over again before they are even considered for leadership positions. Contemporary studies by social psychologists show that the glass ceiling is alive and well.

So the claim that fact that childless women at age thirty make nearly as much as men does not prove that women have gained equality. Neither does the gender pay gap. Although it is standard measure of women's economic equality, that statistic grossly overestimates women's economic equality. Why? Because it compares men who work full time with women who work full time. This is an accurate picture of men, but it is an extremely partial description of women. Fully one-quarter of employed women work part time.

The penalties associated with part-time work are an important contributor to women's economic inequality. The penalty for working part time in the U.S. is enormous: seven times as high as in Sweden, and twice as high as in the U.K., according to Janet Gornick and Marcia Meyers. A recent report by the Joint Economic Committee documented that two-thirds of part-timers are women, and that part-timers in sales earn only 58 cents on the dollar, as compared with full timers.

The last time I looked, when one compared all employed women with all employed men, including part-timers as well as full-timers, women only earned 59 cents for every dollar earned by men. Now that's a sobering statistic.

The old-fashioned gender pay gap statistic embeds the assumption that it is somehow "natural" and uncontroversial to impose sharp penalties on those who don't work "full" time. But what, after all, is "full" time? As Alice Kessler-Harris pointed out long ago, its definition has changed a lot. The one thing that has remained constant is that "full time" has always been defined as the amount of time a man typically works.

From the start of the Industrial Revolution until today, men have been able to work more hours than women outside the home because they work fewer hours inside it. And women still do twice as much housework, and four times as much routine housework, as men, according to Suzanne Bianchi and her co-authors. They also do three hours of child care for each hour men do.

Of course, women could just stop changing the diapers, doing the laundry, cooking the meals. But no one wants them to, because that kind of unpaid work is every bit as crucial for sustaining a productive economy as paid work is. So it's time to document, and to challenge, the highly artificial penalty imposed on anyone who does not work a full time schedule. The recent report by the Joint Economic Committee is a good first step. The second crucial step is to change the way we measure the gender pay gap, and to compare employed men and women, rather than restricting the analysis to full-timers. Only then can we get an accurate picture of the yawning gap between the earnings of men and those women.


August 19, 2010

Gender Pay Gap Underestimates Economic Inequality by Joan Williams
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Old 08-09-10, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
The single strongest bias is the maternal wall. Motherhood triggers powerful assumptions that mothers are less competent and committed to their jobs.
If the "less competent" assumption is borne out, this would clearly be discrimination. But "less committed"? Well, someone has to pick the kid from nursery etc. Unless a woman can demonstrate that her baby will be taken care of by "others" (full-time au pairs, stay-at-home father etc), I think it's not unreasonable to assume that she will be, de facto, less committed.

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... and held to higher performance and punctuality standards than men.
That part is a bitch, I'll agree.

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Contemporary studies by social psychologists show that the glass ceiling is alive and well.
That's bad, no question about it but we shall see how our generation of childless women will fare. I think there'll be marked improvements.

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Because it compares men who work full time with women who work full time.
Coz, you know, comparing apples with apples is usually deem more scientifically accurate than comparing apples and pears...

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But what, after all, is "full" time? As Alice Kessler-Harris pointed out long ago, its definition has changed a lot. The one thing that has remained constant is that "full time" has always been defined as the amount of time a man typically works.
Sounds pretty logical to me. Look at it from an employer's pov. You would want the kind of employee that can work all of the legally alloted time to work... So, sure, legislation says how much time that is but, once that's done, it's pretty normal for employers to want people who work the 35, 39 or 42 hours legally authorised... And, in management roles, who can work 50 or 60 hours a week, as required...

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Of course, women could just stop changing the diapers, doing the laundry, cooking the meals.
Yep. And I don't know but, when I see many of modern women's culinary abilities, I think "cooking" is definitely something they dropped...

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So it's time to document, and to challenge, the highly artificial penalty imposed on anyone who does not work a full time schedule.
I don't think it's artificial. Indeed, countries like Sweden had to legislate in order to change the structure. Rules are more artificial than bosses' natural tendency to exploit their workforce to the fullest.

NB: I am not saying we shouldn't legislate and take away bosses' abilities to exploit their workforce. I am just not happy with the tone of the article suggesting that this is the unnatural thing, not legislation.
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Old 11-09-10, 02:15 AM
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[quote=Gilles de Rais;29941]Unless a woman can demonstrate that her baby will be taken care of by "others" (full-time au pairs, stay-at-home father etc), I think it's not unreasonable to assume that she will be, de facto, less committed.[p/quote]

Which has the effect of a) dumping childcare on women and b) subordinating people lives to their jobs.


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That's bad, no question about it but we shall see how our generation of childless women will fare. I think there'll be marked improvements.
A ridiculous argument. You can't expect human benigs to become sexless automata.

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Coz, you know, comparing apples with apples is usually deem more scientifically accurate than comparing apples and pears...
The comparison is valid.

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Sounds pretty logical to me. Look at it from an employer's pov.
Why? I don't give a flying fuck for them. Looking at everything from the employers point of view is part of the problem

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And, in management roles, who can work 50 or 60 hours a week, as required...
At the golf course.

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NB: I am not saying we shouldn't legislate and take away bosses' abilities to exploit their workforce. I am just not happy with the tone of the article suggesting that this is the unnatural thing, not legislation.
Trying to eliminate human sexuality is pretty unnatural.
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Old 11-09-10, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Which has the effect of a) dumping childcare on women and b) subordinating people lives to their jobs.
Childcare has to be dumped on someone. The fact that it is usually women is... well, a fact but not an engraved rule of nature. Individuals may vary.


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Why? I don't give a flying fuck for them. Looking at everything from the employers point of view is part of the problem.
If you don't give a flying fuck about their problems, what should they give a flying fuck about yours? They're looking for the best (legal) deal. So are you. Free market, baby.

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At the golf course.
In the 60s and 70s maybe. If you know a company where middle management can take it easy at the golf course, can you give me their HR details? I'd like to work for them...


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Trying to eliminate human sexuality is pretty unnatural.
So, as I said countless times now when that subject comes up, the point is that women are discriminated on the objective, observable grounds that most of them care for the children. Childless women fare rather well. The glass ceiling may be in place right now for 50 to 55 years old women executives but my guess is that, when todays' childless 30 to 35 yo women will be 50 or 55, they'll smash through it easily enough.

If you want to remove that barrier for women, you got to work out a solution for childcare at the society level. It's pointless to blame companies for pursuing the best (legal) solution to their problems and looking for the best (legal) ways of making money.
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Old 11-09-10, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Childcare has to be dumped on someone. The fact that it is usually women is... well, a fact but not an engraved rule of nature. Individuals may vary.
That doesn't justify using it as a measure to determine that someone is "less committed".

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If you don't give a flying fuck about their problems, what should they give a flying fuck about yours? They're looking for the best (legal) deal. So are you. Free market, baby.
They don't! Fucke the free market, it is not free when there is such an imbalance bteween buyer and seller, and it is precisely the case that the law is the tool I have to constrain them.

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In the 60s and 70s maybe. If you know a company where middle management can take it easy at the golf course, can you give me their HR details? I'd like to work for them...
And middle management is not going to bve working 50 or 60 hours, nor is doing so even remotely productive and efficient. It's just macho.

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So, as I said countless times now when that subject comes up, the point is that women are discriminated on the objective, observable grounds that most of them care for the children. Childless women fare rather well. The glass ceiling may be in place right now for 50 to 55 years old women executives but my guess is that, when todays' childless 30 to 35 yo women will be 50 or 55, they'll smash through it easily enough.
And as I have pointed out countless times, that is still sexist and unacceptable. You cannot hold human beings to an imagainary standard of sexless automata.

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If you want to remove that barrier for women, you got to work out a solution for childcare at the society level. It's pointless to blame companies for pursuing the best (legal) solution to their problems and looking for the best (legal) ways of making money.
That would be more convincing if they were "making money" instead of stealing it from their employees, but even in this system I don't see why I should be expected to look at it from the companies point of view rather than mine. I don't see why the interests of millions of workers are outweighed by theirs.
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Old 11-09-10, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
That doesn't justify using it as a measure to determine that someone is "less committed".
Kinda by definition. Less time at work = less committed. I am not saying that mothers don't rave as much as the average workers about how fantastic their company's products are. I am talking observable time spent on the job. It's not a very good measure, actually but it's the one being used.

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They don't! Fucke the free market, it is not free when there is such an imbalance bteween buyer and seller, and it is precisely the case that the law is the tool I have to constrain them.
Indeed. So stop blaming them - Let's talk about what kind of laws you think should be voted.

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And middle management is not going to be working 50 or 60 hours, nor is doing so even remotely productive and efficient. It's just macho.
Middle management tend to work these 50 hours (60 is still fairly rare, at least on a regular basis. Lawyers maybe). I tend to agree that it's not necessarily very productive and somewhat macho but, again, face time, rightly or wrongly, is being used as a criteria - It has the advantage of being simple.
Again, if you know companies that do not use face time as a major factor for promotion, please, can you let me know?

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And as I have pointed out countless times, that is still sexist and unacceptable. You cannot hold human beings to an imagainary standard of sexless automata.
Of course you can. There are no laws against it and a significant portion of the population (childless women, men - by dumping childcare) manage.

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That would be more convincing if they were "making money" instead of stealing it from their employees, but even in this system I don't see why I should be expected to look at it from the companies point of view rather than mine. I don't see why the interests of millions of workers are outweighed by theirs.
Good point. Thus, argue for a change in the legal system (and I am genuinely interested in the measures you think would be appropriate - as long as we don't fall back on "the capitalists are evil, let's confiscate everything and abolish property and all will be swell) but do not blame companies. Maximising profit (legally) is their ONLY goal in life.
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Old 11-09-10, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Kinda by definition. Less time at work = less committed. I am not saying that mothers don't rave as much as the average workers about how fantastic their company's products are. I am talking observable time spent on the job. It's not a very good measure, actually but it's the one being used.
Would you rather have a highly committed worker who takes a couple more days off a year or a jobsworth who does the minimum they can get away with?

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Indeed. So stop blaming them - Let's talk about what kind of laws you think should be voted.
I haven't been blaming them, and it should be clear what laws I support: proper equal pay, extentions of paternity and maternity leave, company creche's, flexi-time etc

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Middle management tend to work these 50 hours
Stats?

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Again, if you know companies that do not use face time as a major factor for promotion, please, can you let me know?
It's never been a (formal) part of any of my assesments. The failures and weaknesses of then long hours culture have been widely discussed elsewhere. But again, if we organised ourselves around living to work rather than living to work, shortening the working week, the working day, and having more holidays in the year would allow parents to use that time to do whatever looking after their kids needs doing.

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Of course you can. There are no laws against it and a significant portion of the population (childless women, men - by dumping childcare) manage.
Which is pretty ridiculous and fucked up state of affairs.

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Good point. Thus, argue for a change in the legal system
Have I ever said anything else?

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Maximising profit (legally) is their ONLY goal in life.
And that's the problem in a nutshell.
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Old 11-09-10, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Would you rather have a highly committed worker who takes a couple more days off a year or a jobsworth who does the minimum they can get away with?
But that's not the choice, is it?


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I haven't been blaming them, and it should be clear what laws I support: proper equal pay, extentions of paternity and maternity leave, company creche's, flexi-time etc.
I suspect we, at least, would agree on that. So not bad.

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Stats?
Quick wikipedia search: "In the United States, the working time for upper-income professionals has increased compared to 1965, while total annual working time for low-skill, low-income workers has decreased. This effect is sometimes called the "leisure gap." In 2006, the average man employed full-time worked 8.4 hours per work day, and the average woman employed full-time worked 7.7 hours per work day."

American Time Use Survey Summary

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It's never been a (formal) part of any of my assesments. The failures and weaknesses of the long hours culture have been widely discussed elsewhere.
Oh, I never said it was formal. And, yes, it is wrong and stupid but managers keep using facetime as a measure of commitment and willingness to do the job coz, well, at least, it's easy to measure... When other contribution factors are hard to estimate, facetime is really easy...

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But again, if we organised ourselves around living to work rather than living to work, shortening the working week, the working day, and having more holidays in the year would allow parents to use that time to do whatever looking after their kids needs doing.
You'll find no disagreement from me on that one...

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Which is pretty ridiculous and fucked up state of affairs.
Be that as it may, it's the state we're in.

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Have I ever said anything else? (...) And that's the problem in a nutshell.
Sentence one contradicts sentence two. To put it differently, I am perfectly happy to fight with you to change the law to see motherhood/fatherhood being made easier. Like with salary hikes, I approve, although I am mindful of the reality of competition by China and consorts. However, you will never get me to agree that companies should not pursue profit at the exclusion of everything else (within legal bounds). All attempts have pathetically failed and are just letting the companies get away with carrying on as they intent to but throwing some PR work to cover it up.

Look at the bullshit oil companies spew about caring for the environment and investing in its protection coz they're responsible corporate citizen. I can't find the BP ad they had about underwater protection with turtles and stuff. In the meantime, enjoy the following:

YouTube - Cute new BP ad
Do you trust them?
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Old 13-09-10, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Why? I don't give a flying fuck for them. Looking at everything from the employers point of view is part of the problem
Instant classic. You approach most subjects this way, don't you?
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Old 14-09-10, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
But that's not the choice, is it?
Yes it is.

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Quick wikipedia search: "In the United States, the working time for upper-income professionals
"Upper income professionals" are not "middle management.

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Oh, I never said it was formal. And, yes, it is wrong and stupid but managers keep using facetime as a measure of commitment and willingness to do the job coz, well, at least, it's easy to measure... When other contribution factors are hard to estimate, facetime is really easy...
Many jobs have no facetime at all.

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Sentence one contradicts sentence two. To put it differently, I am perfectly happy to fight with you to change the law to see motherhood/fatherhood being made easier. Like with salary hikes, I approve, although I am mindful of the reality of competition by China and consorts. However, you will never get me to agree that companies should not pursue profit at the exclusion of everything else (within legal bounds).
It does not, and you're missing the point. As I have alweays argued, you cannot say" oh but this is inevitable because companies must seek profits, nothing we can do about it". Then point remains that we can and should frame what kind of behaviour is legitimate in that pursuit in the interests of the bulk of the population.

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Do you trust them?
Self-evidently not.
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