Originally Posted by contracycle

Oh yes indeed. Technocratic managerialism is killing popular democracy, and revealing what a sham it is under capitalism.

Hey, if the people didn't like it, they could vote for someone else than the technocratic managerialists. And, in times of crisis, as Francois pointed out, they sometimes do. In France, the extreme right and extreme left, taken together, represent a bit more than 30% of the voters. That's a lot of angry people clamoring for political radicalism of one sort or another...

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Nope, not a safe assumption at all. Because their presence will also affect the mood in the country as a whole; after all, they have the platform from which to articulate their views.

Well, I think we can agree to disagree. Even in the US, the nasty country par excellence, people are pointing out that the Republicans are shooting themselves in the foot by radicalising themselves too much...

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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais

Hey, if the people didn't like it, they could vote for someone else than the technocratic managerialists.

Only if and when that is on offer, which the convergence of mainstream parties seeks to prevent.

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Well, I think we can agree to disagree. Even in the US, the nasty country par excellence, people are pointing out that the Republicans are shooting themselves in the foot by radicalising themselves too much...

And the Republicans were saying the same about the Democrats only a short while ago. And anyway, nasty is not the same as extreme.

If there is no democracy within the party, what is the point of rejoining it, since you can have no influence? It is, like so many other parties, under the control of fuhrers. Leave it to die and start again.

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Yep. There comes a point where you're better off knocking the house down and building new rather than trying to repair all the defects.

Party right or wrong/mother drunk or sober.

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There's surely scope here for a cool video game: Knock Down Your Mother.

In the Californian version of the game, you would be muscled out by the pool cleaner (or in more difficult neighbourhoods, the repo man). I'm not sure though how it would adapt to Manchester or Glasgow.