Originally Posted by contracycle

Yes yes. you can mock the divisions that arise in the Left, andf many have, but you can't refute the existence of those divisions. And if you're then asserting that one of these is the "true" left - a point I fastidiously avoided myself - then you're making the same error.

So they're all part of the left, thank you that's all I wanted. On with the actual discussion.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

So they're all part of the left, thank you that's all I wanted. On with the actual discussion.

But your argument is not about PART of the left, it is about "the left" as a whole. That is all I objected to. The things you criticise are things that are also criticised by the left - which breaks the claim you're advancing.

It just says "left". Doesn't say "the whole of the left". If it makes you feel any better they probably meant to say "except Contra" but just forgot.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

Well given that the book is written in English by a Briton... I mean, there are a lot of stories on here that don't involve France at all.

Fine. Although, I have to point out that, much as I'd like to, Continental Europe isn't reduced to France since at least Napoleon...

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*shrugs* "We should all be nice to each other" is a perfectly valid point of view, but it doesn't really do much to advance the debate.

No but it is one of these basic concept that you can use to decide on your course of action in many situations...

Originally Posted by contracycle

If you can't understand, or or don't think you can argue, the case for the harm inflicted by racism or other discrimination, you can cloak it under the wooly idea of "causing offence". It's a weak-kneed, half hearted solution that fails to address many of the real issues, and often goes on to cause harms of its own, but hey, at least you didn't have to act or think like dirty liberal/commie.

I think this point would deserve an answer. Should I be free to call a black "nigger" and he just shouldn't take offense coz "no one has a right not to be offended"... I mean, given you're turning very libertarian these days, I guess you'd be fine with that black guy then smacking me down and would say " 'serves you right for being a racist prick". But I am sure you see why such a social organisation might not be ideal... even if you like plenty of gory murders in your TV news...

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No but it is one of these basic concept that you can use to decide on your course of action in many situations...

But this isn't about deciding a course of action, it's about social trends.

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I think this point would deserve an answer. Should I be free to call a black "nigger" and he just shouldn't take offense coz "no one has a right not to be offended"... I mean, given you're turning very libertarian these days, I guess you'd be fine with that black guy then smacking me down and would say " 'serves you right for being a racist prick". But I am sure you see why such a social organisation might not be ideal... even if you like plenty of gory murders in your TV news.

Yup. He should also cut your organs out and sell them to some Triads.

I've always been in favour of free speech. He's got every right to call you a honky or a racist or whatever else he chooses. That's all.

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The idea that people would not go beyond words is... interesting.

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Worked for 200+ years.

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