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Old 03-09-11, 09:53 AM
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Default Toby Young has a point

Toby Young has a point | Anthony Seldon | Comment is free | The Guardian

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Toby Young's free school is officially opened next week by Boris Johnson in west London. One of the core aims, Young tells us, is to instil in boys and girls from ordinary backgrounds the same edge that public school toffs have. When the hapless Young arrived at Oxford from his northern grammar school, he was bowled over by the likes of Boris and David Cameron. They may not have had better A Levels than him, nor been smarter academically than their state school colleagues: but they had an assurance that contemporaries from humbler backgrounds altogether lacked.

So Young wants to inculcate that same mindset into his own charges. He's particularly starstruck by Eton, the alma mater of both Boris and David Cameron. The school has a practice known as "oiling", which is learning how to win friends and influence others, and how to clamber over them to get what you want. It's a mixture of ambition, self-confidence and bloody-mindedness, and he wants it to go viral throughout his school.

This ambition will nauseate many on the left who see in Eton, and in schools like it, only the perpetuation of a self-regarding and uncaring oligarchy. Such schools, it believes, sums up all that is wrong in Britain today. The idea that this culture is being applied to non-privileged children is abhorrent. One can understand the concern. Few sights are more stomach-churning than public school bankers sucking the blood out of businesses by day and quaffing Bollinger in elitist watering-holes at night. Though public schools have changed in the last twenty-five years, the smell of arrogance and inward-lookingness still hovers over some.

But Young is right to emphasise the importance of character. It puts the finger precisely on what is still going wrong in state schools. While the best are matching the independent sector on academic performance and in league tables, the all-round education they are offering often falls far short.

This only becomes apparent when the young leave the schools and move to university and beyond. They find they lack the confidence and roundedness that is an integral part of the lives of the independent school student. The left has tended to eschew character-building as a rightwing obsession, redolent of empire and all that is wrong with the class system. For some years, however, thoughtful people on the centre-left, like Richard Reeves, formerly of thinktank Demos and now Nick Clegg's special adviser, have been talking about the need to develop character among all our young, with schools at the heart of this. He draws on the example of the scout movement, whose founder, Robert Baden-Powell, described it as a "character factory", designed to instil determination and resilience in all young people, regardless of class. The popularity of the scout movement one hundred years on, reflects the hunger that persists for this richer kind of education.

State schools have become even more exam factories than they were 30 years ago, when Young was a student. Through no fault of the teachers – the relentless pressure of league tables has dictated schools sacrifice so much of the education of the whole child for the sake of exam grades. The way to address the problem of factory schools is to institute some of Baden-Powell's mentality. Doing so would truly level the playing field. And this is the exciting point. Development of character in young people is not at the cost of academic performance: instead, evidence shows it boosts exam results.

Character in public schools is formed far less from breeding and connections than by a whole variety of methods which should become available to all. It is built in ways that some on the left find distasteful, and they'd better get over it. Competitive sport is vital: it teaches resilience, teamwork and trust. Leadership training and mentoring should become widespread in schools. Young people should be given tough challenges, mental as well as physical – it will mean some will fail, just like sport means some will lose. That's life, but it's how people learn.

Cadet training, so much reviled by those who know nothing about it, will teach even the most disadvantaged young person every bit as much about mental strength as the Eton wall game. Hikes and gruelling expeditions should not be the domain just of the posh. Boarding, free of charge, should become much more prevalent throughout the state sector and is being considered seriously by government. Wellington Academy in Wiltshire, which we sponsor, opens with boarding this term. The experience of living side by side with fellow students, and in conditions of relative deprivation, is profoundly character-building. For those young people whose home lives are not conducive to their academic or emotional progress, boarding should become an automatic choice.

Kneejerk reactions to Young should be avoided. Penetrate beneath the flannel, and there are real lessons to be learned that could improve the life chances of all – above all, those with the least.
Leadership training: making loud arseholes into even louder arseholes.

I'd generally agree that state school kids would be more successful if they had all the character building business that you get at public schools, but I don't believe that 5-a-side and camping in Wales are going to cut it. Public schools build character through misery, basically by letting kids know from an early age that the world is a shitty place that's out to get you and your job is to survive it, by teamwork or personality or whatever.
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Old 04-09-11, 12:55 PM
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If misery was self-confidence training in itself, surely, the less privileged/poor kids would have plenty of self-confidence?

Could it be that knowing you're never going to fail too badly, knowing that a warm place at the top of the tree is kept for you and it's mostly a matter of how high you can climb amongst the top branches, knowing you're privileged that gives that self-confidence?

Aristocracy was self-confident because they knew that, whatever they did, they'd come out smelling like roses. They were above the law. And, for example, "vices" like gambling or conspicuous spending or whatnot that would break a bourgeois household (thus gambling is against bourgeois values while thrift is a virtue) were no big deals for aristocracy - There was always more money where it came from - Indeed, often, they couldn't spend it fast enough...

Being convinced of your own importance but with the ability to back it up with hard cash is self-confidence and the difference between self-confidence and self-importance.
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Old 04-09-11, 01:35 PM
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Well, I'm partly going based on personal experience here, but...

Kids don't really think "well, I may be having my head shoved down a toilet right now, but in 40 years I'll be a non-executive director of Lloyds TSB". They might occasionally think "I'll fucking show them" but that's a different thing. Generally they adapt pretty well to being poor - African kids are no more depressed than English ones. What fucks them up is being sent to a strange place with no one they know, where everyone's out to get them.

I'm not sure why this should make them all self-confident afterwards. I guess maybe the realisation that - unless you end up in a Siberian labour camp somehow - nothing could possibly be worse than what's already happened.
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Old 04-09-11, 01:37 PM
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Though I will add that having money helps in that it breeds habit. If you're used to going to Claridges for tea or getting your clothes made bespoke or whatever, you won't be nervous at having to do it for the first time.
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Old 04-09-11, 05:16 PM
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Seldon's sole claim to an opinion on this or indeed any political topic is that he wrote a biography of Tony Blair. I don't know why he's even being given the column inches in which to pontificate.

This is a fine examplke of the witlessness of bemoaning what "the left" is alleged to have done, because after all the whole drive to make schools "exam factories" was an artifact of the right, who believe that the job of education is to serve business. But lets not let facts get int the way of a good bit of fashionable left-bashing.

And, ultimately, the flaw in all these arguments remains persistently ignored, Lets say we could wave a magic wand and make everyone confident in the best elite scholl tradition, would this make them all succesful? Of course not, because someone still has to do the shitty jobs. This doesn't make any difference to anything, which is precisely why its such a hardy perennial.

I love the fact that we denounce a "sense of entitlement" among the feckless youth and then laud when exhibited by the sprogs of the rich. Nor does it seem to occur to anyone that that sense of being among the elite may well originate from that wealth, rather than from some sort of local school culture.
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Old 04-09-11, 06:21 PM
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Lets say we could wave a magic wand and make everyone confident in the best elite scholl tradition, would this make them all succesful? Of course not, because someone still has to do the shitty jobs. This doesn't make any difference to anything, which is precisely why its such a hardy perennial.
It'd put state school kids on the same footing as public school ones in job interviews.

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I love the fact that we denounce a "sense of entitlement" among the feckless youth and then laud when exhibited by the sprogs of the rich. Nor does it seem to occur to anyone that that sense of being among the elite may well originate from that wealth, rather than from some sort of local school culture.
Gilles just did, and I partly agreed.
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Old 04-09-11, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
It'd put state school kids on the same footing as public school ones in job interviews.
Self-confidence in job interviews comes from 3 sources. 1, having had many interviews. 2, having the skills (or believing to have the skills) to do the job well. 3, A "Next Best Alternative" (sometimes fused with the BATNA concept): Next Best Alternative

It's a complicated way to say you're not desperate and can always walk off. As in seduction with the other sex, being quietly sure that you don't need to agree to anything or indeed not caring is a powerful thing.

In a job interview, if you know that daddy can always line up more of them, you're likely to come across as more self-assured than someone who desperately need the job.

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Gilles just did, and I partly agreed.
Thanks.
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Old 04-09-11, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Kids don't really think "well, I may be having my head shoved down a toilet right now, but in 40 years I'll be a non-executive director of Lloyds TSB". They might occasionally think "I'll fucking show them" but that's a different thing.
And again, being bullied isn't limited to upper class, far from it. Plenty of poor kids got bullied. It doesn't seem to do much good to them...

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What fucks them up is being sent to a strange place with no one they know, where everyone's out to get them. I'm not sure why this should make them all self-confident afterwards. I guess maybe the realisation that - unless you end up in a Siberian labour camp somehow - nothing could possibly be worse than what's already happened.
So that's interesting in the sense that public schools with boarding is a very English (Swiss?) thing. French don't do it. Americans don't really either. Probably a hang-up from aristocratic tradition of swapping children around.

But have you noticed French ex-Louis Le Grand, ex-X, ex-ENA being any less self-confident than their Eton, Oxbridge counterparts?

And, the kicker, are they more damaged?
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Old 04-09-11, 07:21 PM
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Self-confidence in job interviews comes from 3 sources. 1, having had many interviews. 2, having the skills (or believing to have the skills) to do the job well. 3, A "Next Best Alternative" (sometimes fused with the BATNA concept): Next Best Alternative
4. Having had to survive for several years in a hostile environment where everyone's out to trip you up.

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And again, being bullied isn't limited to upper class, far from it. Plenty of poor kids got bullied. It doesn't seem to do much good to them...
Yeah, I think it's to do with having a way out - kind of like African wars that drag on forever since both sides know that they they can rely on UN peacekeepers preventing them from massacring each other. Without that safety net the ones who looked likely to lose would be obliged to find a modus vivendi. Same with being picked on - if you can get away from it evenings and weekends then you're more likely to just put up with it for the hours you're in school. If it's 24/7 then you're pretty much obliged to find a way of dealing with it.

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So that's interesting in the sense that public schools with boarding is a very English (Swiss?) thing. French don't do it. Americans don't really either. Probably a hang-up from aristocratic tradition of swapping children around.

But have you noticed French ex-Louis Le Grand, ex-X, ex-ENA being any less self-confident than their Eton, Oxbridge counterparts?

And, the kicker, are they more damaged?
I'd say probably not as much; the ones I know are more obviously neurotic. I suspect it has to do with not boarding, but also with the different cultural standards in aristocratic and bourgeois soicieties. In France if you've got it you flaunt it - discreetly, maybe, but you let people know that you're an énarque/have a Mercedes/shop at Hermès - everyone else does it and if you didn't they'd think you wierd. In England that'd get you labelled a nouveau riche from the get-go, and you're obliged to be all self-deprecating.

I can't get out of the English habit, and my French friends think I'm perpetually on the verge of suicide.
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Old 04-09-11, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
It'd put state school kids on the same footing as public school ones in job interviews.
No it wouldn't. Confidence is all very well but most of the jobs that poor kids will go foir will either be so lowly as to never put them in competition with the progeny of the parasite class, or will require specific technical qualifications. A general sense of entitlemewnt and self worth doesn't really wash, not unless you're going for sinecure positions that are pretty vague in terms of actual responsibility.

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4. Having had to survive for several years in a hostile environment where everyone's out to trip you up.
So, like a sink school in a bad neighbourhood?

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Yeah, I think it's to do with having a way out - kind of like African wars that drag on forever since both sides know that they they can rely on UN peacekeepers preventing them from massacring each other.
Lol. Very colonial. Not at all realistic though.

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Without that safety net the ones who looked likely to lose would be obliged to find a modus vivendi. Same with being picked on - if you can get away from it evenings and weekends then you're more likely to just put up with it for the hours you're in school. If it's 24/7 then you're pretty much obliged to find a way of dealing with it.
Of this were true then the kids with thr toughest lives in the roughest nmeighbourhoods would constantly sweeping to the top. Doesn't happen. A much more cogent argument is that thiings like boarding schools marry to that sense of entitlement a brutish, de-socialised selfishness, producing emotional cripples with truncated empathy. An maybe that condition, as in other cases, does in fact make one better equipped for trampling over whoever you need to in order to make a buck, but it's hardly a sound recommendation fo a way to raise kids overall.
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