Quote:

And I never said they woul;dn;t help, only that the were a distraction. Plus, more recently I was refuting th idea that "bullshitting" could someone triumph everywhere.

I don't remember saying that.

Quote:

I'm sure they wouldn't.

Wll since it's never going to happen, let's just presume that I'm right.

Quote:

Well in the first instance, your intial assumption is wrong, becuase of course the workers are able to decide for themselves how long they work, and what work they will do. So its perfectly within their power to go over the accounts in a sort of committee. Secondly, I see no reason for you to think that "administration" is some wonderfully complex job, or that it stands as some sort of qualification. Even in your faulty scenario, it would be much more likely for someone with some real expertise to resent the pissant bean counter, although as pointed out elsewhere, why there should be any resentment at all, if the job needs doing, is an unsuported assumption. Historically, admin of this type was a rotating role; it just isn't particularly hard to do.

Historically they made stuff out of pieces of wood. Something like microsoft is a lot more complicated.

And how do you intend to stop me just being a free rider if the workers decide how much they do and all get paid the same irrespective? Clock in, clock out, collect my 100K. Sounds like the House of Lords.

Plus, people are lazy. Who the fuck wants to work all day and then have to sit in on the accounts committee?

Quote:

Why would you need to do it illegally? After all, in this system, unlike capitalism, you're actually earning from all your produce.

Prolly not enough to go and live in Rio for the rest of my life.

Quote:

Most? Really? If Even if its true, it just confoirms once again that ownership of capitakl is what makes the difference. In this case the "entrepreneur" is just a proxy for someone else who holds capital.

Pretty generous of him to use it to prevent other people from starving then. Guy clearly deserves a cut.

Quote:

Research.

Where?

Quote:

Exactly. So whether or not their real contribution can be determined is moot.

While back you said it was easy to determine.

__________________
Standard disclaimer: the disgusting statements contained in this post are the views of the poster, and unless specified do not represent the views of the moderators or the site's owners.

Originally Posted by contracycle

Most? Really?

Going on statistics, yes.

http://www.london.edu/assets/documen...eport_2006.pdf

The average entrepreneur | Startups

White, male, in his 40s, in the South East, somewhat educated, launching himself in the same sector he worked during his professional life so far... I can't find too much info on his initial stake but I suspect they wouldn't have waited till 40 if they had unlimited capital from their multi-generational pillage...

__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.

Originally Posted by Zichao

I don't remember saying that.

Wasn;t that implicit in claiming you;d rather be a good bvillshitter than a mediocre scientist?

Quote:

Wll since it's never going to happen, let's just presume that I'm right.

Lets not, and say we did.

Quote:

Historically they made stuff out of pieces of wood. Something like microsoft is a lot more complicated.

Hsitorically, the soviets rotated roles. Because a technical worker has a bunch of transferrable skills. Mircosoft is programming, and yes it is much more complicated, and much more specialised - so a programmer would be able to do admin, while an administrator would not be able to do programming. Also note that software is all labour.

Quote:

And how do you intend to stop me just being a free rider if the workers decide how much they do and all get paid the same irrespective? Clock in, clock out, collect my 100K. Sounds like the House of Lords.

I never said "irrespective". I said you control your own production. If choose to work half as much you;d be entitled to half as much.

Quote:

Plus, people are lazy. Who the fuck wants to work all day and then have to sit in on the accounts committee?

But if you're controlling your own labour, who is there to make you work all day? Admin just becomes one of your functions, to be organised the same as anything else.

Quote:

Prolly not enough to go and live in Rio for the rest of my life.

Really? Given modern mechanical producitivity, it shouldn;lt be hard to accumulate enough of a surplus to do just that. And it wouldn't be, except that in the current context your employer seizes all that surplus.

Quote:

Pretty generous of him to use it to prevent other people from starving then. Guy clearly deserves a cut.

A cut exactly proportional to his labour. Sure.

Quote:

Where?

In books.

Quote:

While back you said it was easy to determine.

Yes, it is. But I also said that just becuase it's easy to determine doesn't mean that shareholders really want to determine it.

Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais

Going on statistics, yes.

Tesco building a new supermarket in your area, or Toyota a new car plant, are more significant, and they all depend on pre-existing capital.

That's not entrepreneurship, that's capacity extension. Definitely not the same risk/reward profile...

__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.

Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais

That's not entrepreneurship, that's capacity extension. Definitely not the same risk/reward profile...

Yes. But then, most people are not employed by startups.

Only very just...

http://stats.berr.gov.uk/ed/sme/Stat...lease_2009.pdf

Small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) together accounted for more than half of employment (59.8 per cent) and turnover (49.0 per cent) in the UK. Small enterprises alone (0 to 49 employees) accounted for 48.2 per cent of employment and 35.7 per cent of turnover (see Figure 1)

And most new jobs are created by them.

__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.

But that doesn't mean they're new. A local baker thats been passed down through six generations is clearly a case of pre-existing capital, not entrepreneurial flare.

Quote:

Wasn;t that implicit in claiming you;d rather be a good bvillshitter than a mediocre scientist?

Not really - it's best to stick to what you're good at, right?

Quote:

Hsitorically, the soviets rotated roles. Because a technical worker has a bunch of transferrable skills. Mircosoft is programming, and yes it is much more complicated, and much more specialised - so a programmer would be able to do admin, while an administrator would not be able to do programming. Also note that software is all labour.

Just because you look down on administrators doesn't mean their job is easy. Everyone looks down on logistics guys in the army, but they have one of the most stressful jobs.

Quote:

I never said "irrespective". I said you control your own production. If choose to work half as much you;d be entitled to half as much.

Ok then.

Quote:

But if you're controlling your own labour, who is there to make you work all day? Admin just becomes one of your functions, to be organised the same as anything else.

But if I'm sitting on the finance committee I'm not actually producing anything. Do I get paid for it or not?

Quote:

Really? Given modern mechanical producitivity, it shouldn;lt be hard to accumulate enough of a surplus to do just that. And it wouldn't be, except that in the current context your employer seizes all that surplus.

Fair enough, but I have a far higher chance of becoming an employer than I have of overthrowing capitalism, so I'm just going to stick to that plan, I think.

Quote:

A cut exactly proportional to his labour. Sure.

In that case, no money for you. You'll probably change your minds once you start starving to death.

Quote:

In books.

Which books?

Quote:

Yes, it is. But I also said that just becuase it's easy to determine doesn't mean that shareholders really want to determine it.

Oh yeah, I was forgetting the "they're all morons" item...

__________________
Standard disclaimer: the disgusting statements contained in this post are the views of the poster, and unless specified do not represent the views of the moderators or the site's owners.

Originally Posted by contracycle

But that doesn't mean they're new. A local baker thats been passed down through six generations is clearly a case of pre-existing capital, not entrepreneurial flare.

Very true. And I do tend to favour confiscatory level of inheritance taxes.

OTOH, you got to admit that a local baker isn't a huge corporation threatening to steal all the workers' surplus... Small firms tend to have bad profit margins. When they don't, they tend to become big fairly fast...

__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.