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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-11, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FredFredson View Post
Well there are some similarities. It depends on the time, cheering Hiroshima in August 1945 is completely different than cheering now.
No. Or, otherwise, it is okay for Arabs/muslims to cheer 9/11.
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Old 05-05-11, 09:51 PM
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No. Or, otherwise, it is okay for Arabs/muslims to cheer 9/11.
Perhaps looking at it from outside.

So if it is NEVER okay to cheer for anything that causes loss of life, I would agree.

Frankly the Arabs cheering 9/11 and the Brits/Yanks/Canadians et al cheering Hiroshima were BOTH OKAY given the time and circumstances. You can't damn people for a momentary reaction of happiness when an enemy is discommoded.

Calmer sober thought would of course suggest that such a reaction is not a "wise" nor "moral" one.

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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-11, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by FredFredson View Post
So if it is NEVER okay to cheer for anything that causes loss of life, I would agree. Frankly the Arabs cheering 9/11 and the Brits/Yanks/Canadians et al cheering Hiroshima were BOTH OKAY given the time and circumstances.
Ah, okay. Then, we are on the same page. But I remember many Americans using the 'crowds' of joyful Arabs after 9/11 as 'proof' that they needed extermining. My point is that, if we hold them to a standard, the least we can do is apply it to ourselves.

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Calmer sober thought would of course suggest that such a reaction is not a "wise" nor "moral" one.
True but somewhat irrelevant. Human beings are neither wise nor moral...
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Old 06-05-11, 10:32 AM
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Good article on the subject...

Celebrating a Death: Ugly, Maybe, but Only Human
By BENEDICT CAREY

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/06/he...ines&emc=tha22

Some Americans celebrated the killing of Osama bin Laden loudly, with chanting and frat-party revelry in the streets. Others were appalled — not by the killing, but by the celebrations.

Photo: A crowd member dressed as Captain America joined the celebration at the World Trade Center site in New York early Monday morning.

“It was appropriate to go after Bin Laden, just to try to cut the head off that serpent, but I don’t think it’s decent to celebrate a killing like that,” said George Horwitz, a retired meat cutter and Army veteran in Bynum, N.C.

Others were much more critical. “The worst kind of jingoistic hubris,” a University of Virginia student wrote in the college newspaper, The Cavalier Daily. In blogs and online forums, some people asked: Doesn’t taking revenge and glorying in it make us look just like the terrorists?

The answer is no, social scientists say: it makes us look like human beings.
In an array of research, both inside laboratories and out in the world, psychologists have shown that the appetite for revenge is a sensitive measure of how a society perceives both the seriousness of a crime and any larger threat that its perpetrator may pose.

Revenge is most satisfying when there are strong reasons for exacting it, both practical and emotional.

“Revenge evolved as a deterrent, to impose a cost on people who threaten a community and to reach into the heads of others who may be contemplating similar behavior,” said Michael McCullough, a psychologist at the University of Miami and author of “Beyond Revenge: The Evolution of the Forgiveness Instinct” (Jossey-Bass, 2008). “In that sense it is a very natural response.”

Many of the sources of the joyous outburst were obvious: A clear victory after so many drawn-out conflicts. A demonstration of American competence, and of consequences delivered. The public relations value of delivering a public blow to a worldwide terror network. And, it needs to be said, the timing: The news hit just as many bars were starting to clear out for the night.

But this was much more than a simple excuse to party.

“Pure existential release,” said Tom Pyszczynski, a social psychologist at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs, who has studied reactions to 9/11. “Whether or not the killing makes any difference in the effectiveness of Al Qaeda hardly matters; defeating an enemy who threatens your worldview, the very values you believe are most protective, is the quickest way to calm existential anxiety.”

After almost 10 years, the end was nothing if not final. “The emotions were so strong, I think, because the event was compacted: Bin Laden was found and killed, and it was done — done and over, just like that,” said Kevin Carlsmith, a social psychologist at Colgate University and the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences at Stanford. “We’re so used to people being brought in, held at Guantánamo, the trials, the appeals; it feels like justice is never done.”

As a rule, people are far more forgiving than they might guess, studies find. After most betrayals, like being dumped by a love interest or insulted, the urge for revenge erodes around the same rate that certain memories do: sharply in the first few weeks, and much more slowly afterward. The same kind of pattern can follow even physical assaults, depending on the circumstances and the personality of the victim.

“The intensity of the emotion falls off precipitously, simply because the body can’t carry such a giant load of outrage and function very well,” Dr. McCullough said.

But the urge for payback — especially for a crime like the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, which killed almost 3,000 civilians — never goes to zero. “There is a stubborn part of the memory that hangs on to the urge, to a little piece of it,” and the pain is refreshed every time the memory is recalled, Dr. McCullough said.

It is easy to forget how much fear was in the air after the 9/11 attacks: the anthrax mailings, the airport lines, the color-coded terror alerts. Many of those celebrating late on Sunday and early Monday were teenagers during those years, young people who have lived much of their lives under the threat of terrorism — and this terrorist in particular — and who had the time and energy to hit the streets and share the moment.

“For them this was a chance to be a part of history,” Dr. Pyszczynski said.

In a long series of studies, psychologists have shown that when people are reminded that they will one day die, they fixate on attributes they consider central to their self worth. Those who are religious become more so; those who value strength or physical attractiveness intensify their focus on these qualities; and people generally become more patriotic, more supportive of aggressive military action.

“Even subtle reminders of 9/11 have the same effect,” Dr. Pyszczynski said.

The sight of Bin Laden’s face on television or a smartphone news feed might have been enough to move people from the sidelines into the streets, to cheer for the home team.

Finally, people everywhere have a strong belief in “just deserts” punishment. In a 2002 study, psychologists at Princeton University had more than 1,000 participants evaluate specific crimes and give sentencing recommendations for each. The subjects carefully tailored each recommended sentence to the details of the infraction, its brutality and the record of the perpetrator.

The drive to enforce those sentences varies widely from person to person. But in a crowd of like-minded people, the most intense drives for justice become the norm: People who may have felt a mix of emotions in response to the news can be swept up in the general revelry.

Thus the natural urge for revenge — satisfied so suddenly, releasing a decade of background anxiety, stoked by peers — feeds on itself. Delight turns to chanting turns to climbing on lamp posts.

--------------------------------------------------------

Q: Doesn’t taking revenge and glorying in it make us look just like the terrorists?

A: The answer is no, social scientists say: it makes us look like human beings.

Better answer, imo: The answer is 'yes', it makes us look like terrorists. But that's okay coz terrorists are just normal human beings waging a war with the tools at their disposal.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-11, 10:35 AM
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Gold nugget, though - "held at Guantanamo, the trials, the appeals. It feels like justice is never being done".

Errr... Yeah, I suspect that's also how the guys in Guantanamo feels. I think they'd welcome a trial to get it over and done with, either way.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-11, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Q: Doesn’t taking revenge and glorying in it make us look just like the terrorists?

A: The answer is no, social scientists say: it makes us look like human beings.
You make it sound like something to be proud of...
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Old 07-05-11, 11:25 AM
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Mr Obama, accompanied by Vice President Joe Biden during a visit to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, was briefed on the mission by the men who shot bin Laden dead. He presented all the units involved with a Presidential Unit Citation in recognition of their achievement.

Addressing troops afterwards he hailed the "extraordinary Special ops folks" who ensured that the deaths of September 11th 2001 would be avenged by carrying out "one of the greatest intelligence and military operations in America's history" and killing the al-Qaeda leader.

"You know, it was a chance for me to say on behalf of all Americans and people around the world, job well done. Job well done."

He said: "They're America's quiet professionals, because success demands secrecy, but I will say this. Like all of you, they could have chosen a life of ease, but like you, they volunteered. They chose to serve in a time of war, knowing they could be sent into harm's way.

"They trained for years. They're battle-hardened. They practised tirelessly for this mission. And when I gave the order, they were ready. And in recent days the whole world has learned just how ready they were."

Mr Obama was met at Fort Campbell by senior officers including Vice Admiral William McRaven, the Joint Special Operations Command head who oversaw the mission from Afghanistan and passed the code word "Geronimo" back to CIA headquarters when bin Laden was killed.

The visit came the day after Mr Obama attended a sombre wreath-laying ceremony at New York's Ground Zero site to commemorate the 9/11 attacks.

He told the troops: "I met with the first responders – the firefighters, the police officers, the Port Authority officers – who lost so many of their own when they rushed into those burning towers. I promised that our nation will never forget those we lost that dark September day."
Osama bin Laden dead: Barack Obama meets US Navy Seal team that carried out raid - Telegraph

Yeah? And what happened to the $50m reward, cheapskate?
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Old 08-05-11, 01:19 PM
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Default Osama bin Laden did not deserve an Islamic burial

Osama bin Laden did not deserve an Islamic burial | Stephen Suleyman Schwartz | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

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Following the decision of the US authorities to consign the corpse of Osama bin Laden to the waters of the Arabian Gulf, some folk with a conspiratorial cast of mind have questioned the disposition of the body, asking if some kind of "cover-up" was intended. I consider such ruminations trivial. More interesting questions emerge from reports that the sea burial was accompanied by standard Islamic funeral rites: washing of the body, wrapping it in a shroud, and "prepared religious remarks which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker".

The widely cited rationales for this disposition of the body have been that Saudi Arabia, and presumably the Bin Laden family, refused to receive the body, and that sea burial would avoid a grave on land becoming a "shrine" for "pilgrimages" by his radical admirers.

Explanations involving "shrines" and "pilgrimages" reflect ignorance of Bin Laden's ideology. He was a fanatical Saudi Wahhabi. Wahhabis do not erect, pray in, or visit shrines. Indeed, they destroy them and kill people who visit them. They also use a hate term, "qabbouri", to describe those who offer devotions at shrines. They forbid prayer facing the tomb of the prophet Muhammad in Medina. Prayer at shrines is associated with Sufi Muslims, both Shia and Sunni, not with Wahhabi radicals.

There may have been other alternatives to sea burial, including interment in an unmarked grave, the location of which would be kept secret.

But, more important than the question of a shrine to the terrorist, journalists should ask moderate Muslim scholars whether they consider Bin Laden to have died in a state of Islamic belief.

I believe Bin Laden had apostasised from Islam by his denial of the sinful nature of terrorism. He planned and took responsibility for atrocious acts, which were those of an enemy of Islam, by the tongue, the pen, money, and the sword. These deeds were public and he boasted of them. Rejecting the judgment of the sin of killing innocent people is a repudiation of Islam.

I do not believe there was any requirement for the US authorities to wash Bin Laden's body, cover it with a shroud, say Islamic prayers over it, or bury it within the normal prescribed period, which, except in unusual circumstances, is 24 hours from death.

Rather than asking if Bin Laden received a correct or proper Islamic burial, journalists should ask if he merited any Islamic burial observance. That the US forces washed the body and allowed a short recitation in Arabic, presumably "Al-Fatiha", the opening chapter of Qur'an, indicates that they believed he died as a Muslim.

In the name of the Centre for Islamic Pluralism, I issued a statement on 1 May stating: "Bin Laden did not die a martyr of Islam … he was an apostate from Muslim belief in his defence of violence against civilians and other innocents."

I do not believe recitations from the Qur'an or other Islamic memorials are appropriate for this homicidal extremist. On the Last Day, in which I and all Muslims believe, Bin Laden will face the judgment of Allah almighty for his numerous transgressions, denial of their sinful nature, and seduction of Muslims into commission of reprehensible brutalities. But this does not entitle him to a Muslim burial. Everyone must face the judgment of Allah, Muslim or non-Muslim alike.

His admirers, and non-Muslims, may consider him a Muslim worthy of an Islamic burial. Moderate Muslims should consider him an apostate and criminal deserving of no such honour.
He makes a good point. Not the standard *blah whine not a real Muslim blah*, but the bit about the wahhabis and shrines.

And also, I've been thinking pretty much ever since it happened, suppose his grave did become a shrine? Who cares? "What? People publically thinking nice things about a chap we killed? Well run for the hills, Ma Barker!" Set up a video camera next to it and you'll know who not to grant a visa to next time.

Far more plausible explanation would be the wish to avoid the embarrassment of having to provide diplomatic protection to the coachloads of American jingoists attempting to piss/dance on it.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-11, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
... but the bit about the wahhabis and shrines.
That's supposing his followers are necessarily Wahhabis and/or theologically coherent. As he try to argue that OBL was no longer truly muslim, no matter what the guy actually said/believed, I think we can safely assume that dogma is extremely fluid. People, iirc, keep images of martyrs, no matter what the Qu'ran says about pictures/shrines/etc...

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And also, I've been thinking pretty much ever since it happened, suppose his grave did become a shrine? Who cares?
You're too logical about this. People care. Look at the Jewish people. They waited 2,000 years and wage a war to be able to touch some stupid stone wall...

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Set up a video camera next to it and you'll know who not to grant a visa to next time.
That's more like it!

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Far more plausible explanation would be the wish to avoid the embarrassment of having to provide diplomatic protection to the coachloads of American jingoists attempting to piss/dance on it.
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