Originally Posted by Zichao

But it's a rare kid who's going to be passionate about any subject at primary/secondary level. It tends to be only when you get into the details that things get interesting.

Hmmm... You know, I am not sure I agree. Frex, I love History and I have a level in history above most people. OTOH, even serious amateurs, let alone professionals, would probably know a heck of a lot more than I.

Same things with movies. I love movies. I probably know more about them than most but I am not a movie buff. I got only the scantiest idea about directing, the arty or indie scene or even who is who in terms of Hollywood directors and scenarists, let alone up-and-coming ones.

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It's a tough world out there. Give 'em what they need to survive; they can be interested in stuff in their spare time or at university.

Fair enough - Except that I might reverse the secondary/university thingy. In secondary, as long as you get your Bac, with stellar grades, if possible, it doesn't matter much what you do. But choosing "psychology" or "history" or "literature" in the french university system is a career-destroying move...

And, again, from the parents pov, there is the thing that, if a kid likes a subject, he is more likely to make an effort about learning it than if you just say "Learn this coz it'll help your career"...

Thus, parents and teachers are quite right in trying to find more effective teaching methods, ones that engage the kids - It's the whole point of "pedagogy", innit?

Here, you seem to be saying "I suffered greatly to get selected and be seen as as knowledgeable and cultured as the elites so others should not get an easier ride"... Which, i suspect, is not even true because i suspect you actually liked studying. Petronius is not on any programme i've ever heard of. And neither is Sophocle's Antigone (Jean Anouilh's, at most, can be part of the french curriculum and i doubt the english public system can be anything remotely as exclusive as that).

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Hmmm... You know, I am not sure I agree. Frex, I love History and I have a level in history above most people. OTOH, even serious amateurs, let alone professionals, would probably know a heck of a lot more than I.

Yes, but you didn't learn that at school - you did it in your own time.

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Fair enough - Except that I might reverse the secondary/university thingy. In secondary, as long as you get your Bac, with stellar grades, if possible, it doesn't matter much what you do. But choosing "psychology" or "history" or "literature" in the french university system is a career-destroying move...

Fair point, but that's to do with the system. In the UK what universtiy you got your degree from matters more than the subject.

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And, again, from the parents pov, there is the thing that, if a kid likes a subject, he is more likely to make an effort about learning it than if you just say "Learn this coz it'll help your career"... Thus, parents and teachers are quite right in trying to find more effective teaching methods, ones that engage the kids - It's the whole point of "pedagogy", innit?

True, but I think that once you've reduced the Eng. Lit. syllabus to Harry Potter, comic books and some poetry about being black you've pretty much lost sight of the mission.

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Here, you seem to be saying "I suffered greatly to get selected and be seen as as knowledgeable and cultured as the elites so others should not get an easier ride"... Which, i suspect, is not even true because i suspect you actually liked studying. Petronius is not on any programme i've ever heard of. And neither is Sophocle's Antigone (Jean Anouilh's, at most, can be part of the french curriculum and i doubt the english public system can be anything remotely as exclusive as that).

Haha, Petronius is far too naughty (though I think he would be perfect for engaging teenagers' interests), but I did Antigone at A Level.

I did enjoy some of it, but most of that was outside school. Also, I suppose that you have to take into account the fact that the prospect of getting the hell out of Grimsby is one of the most powerful motivating forces known to man. Maybe kids who haven't got that are more inclined to coast.

Even if you don't agree with the fact, culture générale is still a big barrier to success. Once you start dumbing down in state schools in an effort to enthuse the lowest common denominator (who, in any case, won't be interested whatever you do) you're making it far harder for state school kids to join the privately educated elite who did all this difficult culture at school, rather than being given diverting stories to read.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

Yes, but you didn't learn that at school - you did it in your own time.

So that was my point - A lot of that was actually done in class. The main consequence of me liking History is that I memorised what was taught to me beyond the next exam. I never was very interested in sciences and consequently I remember almost nothing of the rather stringent secondary education I received in Physics, Chemistry and Biology. IMHO, that's the difference between learning something you like and something just to satisfy an external examinator - One you remember, the other you evacuate from your brain...

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Fair point, but that's to do with the system. In the UK what universtiy you got your degree from matters more than the subject.

In France, that's an added dimension - You need the right diploma from the right school...

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True, but I think that once you've reduced the Eng. Lit. syllabus to Harry Potter, comic books and some poetry about being black you've pretty much lost sight of the mission.

Fair enough. Furthermore, I would hate having to study "Harry Potter"...

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... but I did Antigone at A Level.

In England? Wow! Clearly the english public education system isn't a shit as I thought...

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I suppose that you have to take into account the fact that the prospect of getting the hell out of Grimsby is one of the most powerful motivating forces known to man. Maybe kids who haven't got that are more inclined to coast.

Indeed. I suspect you have a way above average drive. But the system is not just about selection. It is also meant to impart a minimum of baggage to everyone. So, sure, if that baggage is just Harry Potter and poems about being black, it kind of defeat the purpose. But, although I know only the movies made out of his writing, Shakespeare doesn't sound all that hard to make interesting - Plotting, sex, madness... A teacher should be able to do something with that to engage a good % of the kids.

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Even if you don't agree with the fact, culture générale is still a big barrier to success. Once you start dumbing down in state schools in an effort to enthuse the lowest common denominator (who, in any case, won't be interested whatever you do) you're making it far harder for state school kids to join the privately educated elite who did all this difficult culture at school, rather than being given diverting stories to read.

Fair points. Very fair points. I guess we are talking about shades: Things don't have to be made as complicated or unpalateable as necessary just to discourage people. General education till Bac/A grades isn't a concours. And while you may not enthuse everyone, there is a difference between reaching only the lucky few with the drive to succeed no matter the odds and reaching everybody incl. the kids so dumb they cannot see anything in life beyond their next joint, hanging out on stairways, discussing Big Brother/X Factor and who's giving blowjobs to whom this week...

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