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Old 04-02-12, 11:16 PM
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"Google has stayed pretty true to its mantra of organising the world's information. But lately it has been tempted to compromise its role as neutral arbiter of information."

Except for that year in China... lets just forgot about that. This writer has such a moral hard-on for these tech companies. He used words like Evil for chirstsake, he casts the pursuit of money as disdainful "the bleating herds chasing stock numbers" and all that. Thats right, my new man crush Zukerburg is going to tell those Wall Street boys how things are going to be from now on! He's not a cog in their system, he's fucking running it!
Wierd, isn't it? In the West everyone's all "evil Google censoring its search results in China" whereas in China Google's seen as a heroic part of the fight against censorship.

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Pretty sure there is a street corner where you live that you can go to and try your luck. Right now there is no soapbox for people to stand on to advertise their personal info for sale.
My point is that I wouldn't sell at that price because the market isn't willing to pay it.

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Or because the places that sold good, raw food, have been run out of town in the name of 1 stop shopping.
Which was what the customers wanted. No one held a gun to their heads and said "buy the cheapest synthetic crap you can find".
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Old 04-02-12, 11:31 PM
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You're completely missing the point. People criticized Amazon for its business model (and to be fair there were a few times it looked like they would go under) this guy is bitching about Groupon for its book keeping and the fact that its bullshit IPO offering was/is the only thing thats keeping them afloat right now.

Although its business model is highly suspect too, in the sense that it is unsustainable and ultimately destructive to the companies that use it or exist in markets where it is used.
Firstly, he's writing for investors. If there's one thing we all should have learnt from the past few years is that what makes investors happy isn't necessarily what makes a company successful in the long term. His basic point is that Groupon is over-valued at its current price. All it means is that you shouldn't buy into it right now, not that it's a company destined for failure.

About the IPO: *shrugs* it's something companies do when they need more money. Something like Groupon needs to be huge to be secure. There's not much point expecting massive profits from something like that in the first few years. Itzhak's Shoe Emporium can make a certain amount of money whether it's big or small; a friendly, local, neighbourhood Groupon just wouldn't work.
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Old 05-02-12, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Wierd, isn't it? In the West everyone's all "evil Google censoring its search results in China" whereas in China Google's seen as a heroic part of the fight against censorship.
Yeah funny how people with different standards and expectations see things differently.

The old boss would burn the village of an offending employee, the new guy though is much better. He only executes the employee, spares the rest, real saint.

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My point is that I wouldn't sell at that price because the market isn't willing to pay it.
And mine is just that there isn't a market yet, but it seems to be where we're headed in the future.

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Which was what the customers wanted. No one held a gun to their heads and said "buy the cheapest synthetic crap you can find".
Yeah, and as the decades slipped by people became more educated and got first hand experience with the consequences of their actions. Now they want something else, something better. History, repeats.
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Old 05-02-12, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Firstly, he's writing for investors. If there's one thing we all should have learnt from the past few years is that what makes investors happy isn't necessarily what makes a company successful in the long term. His basic point is that Groupon is over-valued at its current price. All it means is that you shouldn't buy into it right now, not that it's a company destined for failure.

About the IPO: *shrugs* it's something companies do when they need more money. Something like Groupon needs to be huge to be secure. There's not much point expecting massive profits from something like that in the first few years. Itzhak's Shoe Emporium can make a certain amount of money whether it's big or small; a friendly, local, neighbourhood Groupon just wouldn't work.
Except it CAN'T succeed if it gets huge because it will destroy the very small/med sized business that it depends on.

---------------------------
Groupon Is a Straight-Up Ponzi Scheme

I would love to be wrong about this. Especially given the fallout in the tech economy if Groupon blows up. But isn’t it really pretty obvious that Groupon is a massive Ponzi scheme?

Let me first say that Groupon filing to go public is not proof of a tech bubble. There is no tech bubble, just a micro bubble here or there. Nor is the Groupon story even particularly interesting or important compared to what’s happening in Europe right now. But since it has filed for IPO and since all of us in the tech economy now must spend the next years hearing the breathless gossip, IPO hysteria, and requisite recriminations over the inevitable implosion — let us briefly examine the tulip mania that is Groupon.

Why is Groupon not merely a tech-bubble datum but a Ponzi scheme? Simple: Groupon has found that you can get local merchants to try anything once if it brings them new customers. A few local merchants in Chicago get them started, and Groupon shows good revenues. In fact, Groupon immediately remits half of those “revenues” back to the local merchant — they were never Groupon revenues in any meaningful sense of the word. But, optically, Groupon revenues look high — which they use to raise a financing round at a high valuation. Then they use the proceeds to hire vast armies of salespeople to dig deeper into Chicago’s local merchant community and repeat the trick in other cities.

Meanwhile, many early-adopting merchants find that the burst in customers immediately disappears, and since they can’t perpetually discount 75%, those merchants stop using Groupon. But Groupon’s sales force adds many more new merchants than it loses (for now). And Groupon goes out and raises another round at an even higher valuation; they hire even more salespeople and expand into even more virgin territory. Lather, rinse, repeat.

The model is only sustainable if it pays off for local merchants — and to justify Groupon’s current size, it now must pay off for local merchants ubiquitously and flamboyantly. If not, Groupon is mostly a Ponzi scheme.

Groupon argues that it helps merchants attract new customers who become loyal patrons, and that pays for the expense of winning them via Groupon. This is the fundamental argument Groupon’s sales force uses to close local merchants. Let’s get past the sales speak to what this really means. The typical Groupon “deal” is 50 percent off retail, with half of the proceeds going to Groupon. So the merchant gets 25 percent of the revenue s/he would have received if the same number of customers had arrived via walk-in traffic. Except that all that Groupon revenue is unprofitable — so more and more Groupon revenue is actually bad.

The vast majority of local merchants can’t discount more than 10 percent. Some can go maybe 25 percent in special situations. But 75 percent is a wholly unsustainable number. If all local merchants begin using Groupon then it can’t send loyal customers to anyone; Groupon can only send discount chasers to merchants. Which means that as Groupon grows, both local merchants and their competitors will find that Groupon’s main argument no longer works (if it ever did) — Groupon simply can’t send them loyal new business. So they all stop using Groupon in its current form.

Perhaps Groupon management thinks it is creating a sustainable Prisoner’s Dilemma, one that ultimately destroys value for the local merchant ecosystem but benefits Groupon. In other words, Groupon could grow so big that local merchants have to use it, even though it ultimately hurts them. In game theory terms, Groupon creates an equilibrium point at “All Local Merchants Defect,” and then, having forced merchants into this value-destroying equilibrium, takes a cut for having rigged the game. Obviously, Groupon couldn’t share this thinking publicly. They would just continue to use the attract-loyal-new-customers argument even though it no longer makes any sense for a ginormous Groupon.

This may sound cynical. But if this is Groupon’s game plan, it isn’t cynical. It’s naïve. Most local merchants simply don’t have enough value in their collective ecosystem to share anything remotely like this much value with Groupon. This isn’t a stable equilibrium, it’s a suicidal one. The local merchants will have to stop using Groupon en masse not long after they first start experimenting with it.

Due to its size, Wal-Mart can squeeze its suppliers on price and its suppliers will comply. Lower prices create value for Wal-Mart’s customers. But it’s sustainable only because it also creates value for Wal-Mart’s suppliers who are large enough that they can find efficiencies in their manufacturing processes (generally by outsourcing manufacturing to low-wage economies like China). That’s bad for American workers. But it’s value-creating for Wal-Mart suppliers because they get to sell stuff through Wal-Mart (which means they can sell more of it) at margins that are acceptable due to reduced manufacturing costs.

But most Groupon local merchants are nothing whatsoever like Wal-Mart’s suppliers. They generally have no margin to spare or wiggle room in their operating costs. Therefore, they cannot continue using Groupon.

Let’s consider the exceptions because there are some. A local merchant with huge gross margins — 70 to 90 percent — can use Groupon sustainably (though it still isn’t clear that they should). Or, a large local merchant who does a lot of expensive customer acquisition (i.e., local television) can use Groupon sustainably but only if Groupon is better than its traditional customer acquisition methods (doing both and doubling customer acquisition costs will not double the local market size).

This is why Groupon must ultimately implode — there just aren’t that many business that fit either of these descriptions.

Groupon’s management publically avers that “local merchants come back” — well, sure, some of them do. For a while. But what do the audited numbers look like? Just what percentage of local merchants come back? How many times? Do local merchants show a strong tendency to decline in participation over time?

Groupon management won’t release these numbers, and certainly won’t release thoroughly audited and vetted versions of these numbers. Instead, what Groupon management is doing is withdrawing an astonishing amount of cash out of the company. It’s also creating a new class of B shares so that it can keep control of the company in the hands of management — all the better to keep the Ponzi scheme going for as long as possible.

Again, there isn’t a bubble in tech. High valuations for many of the big tech companies like LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter make sense due to those companies’ incredible network effects and the fact that, fundamentally, these companies are creating value and will get better over time at monetizing that value. Net-net, Groupon is unsustainably destroying value and will implode sometime in the next five years. When that happens, it will almost certainly, and totally unfairly, wreak havoc throughout the tech ecosystem.

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Old 05-02-12, 10:22 AM
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The key question is whether coupons-chasers become loyal patrons. This article says they don't. I suspect it's right but it'd be good to have data. Even from somewhere else.

Also important: How are the small business owners sure they won't cannibalise their own clientèle? If I went to a restaurant and saw some consumers getting a 50% discount, even if it was an establishment I was keen on, I'd want the discount too.

So - overall, I agree.

Originally Posted by Zichao
If there's one thing we all should have learnt from the past few years is that what makes investors happy isn't necessarily what makes a company successful in the long term.
True and I don't know enough about tech to say I'd be comfortable shorting Groupon. Look at Netflix's price action to see how you might be right about a company's overall model and long term fortune and still get blasted to smithereens - if you didn't get your timing exactly right.

But, with something like Amazon, if the shareholders did not expect value one way or the other, I disagree that they would sustain such valuations. While this is highly subjective in practice and a lot more art than sciences, the fundamental concept for valuing a financial instrument is DCF - Discounted Cash Flow.

You can still use it on a company that doesn't pay cash flows (dividends) in the sense that "retained earnings" are still shareholders' (theoretically at least).

So high valuations for Amazon might be justified despite their low margins as long as their revenues (and thus future "retained earnings") growth is maintained/increased/at or above whatever is implied by the valuation. Although I am not a tech specialist, I suspect that that is the real question for Amazon shareholders, rather than looking at their margins.

Certain businesses, like Apple, are lucky enough that both matters - For a client, I had to read up a bit on the company as they recently announced their quarterly numbers. It was all about the iPhone 4 vs. 4S selling patterns, how often the customer base would buy a new product, the growth of that base and the discount, if any, for the slightly older models [i.e are the margins maintainable over time/at which speed do they decline].
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Old 05-02-12, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by AnonymousIdiotSavant View Post
The vast majority of local merchants can’t discount more than 10 percent. Some can go maybe 25 percent in special situations.
Odd that they manage to do precisely that twice a year in the sales, then.

I expect it has something to do with an issue that that article entirely fails to take into account - that getting rid of all your stock at a relatively low margin (or even no margin at all) is better than having it sitting around your shop with nice, high price tickets on.
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Old 06-02-12, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Odd that they manage to do precisely that twice a year in the sales, then.

I expect it has something to do with an issue that that article entirely fails to take into account - that getting rid of all your stock at a relatively low margin (or even no margin at all) is better than having it sitting around your shop with nice, high price tickets on.
Yeah, they sell things at 50% off and make 50% of the normal profit.

With Groupon they sell things at 50% off and make 25% of the normal profit.

Big difference.
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Old 06-02-12, 09:52 AM
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I'd argue that if you're a small business then managing to get rid of all your stock is more important than the percentage profit.
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Old 06-02-12, 10:19 AM
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Getting rid of your stock only matters if you got no prospect to sell it otherwise.


As to the 25% or 50% discount, the point is profit margin, not price tags. You cannot discount 50% forever if your margin are 5-10%. Let alone 75%. But the difference is actually small - it would just change how fast you'd go broke.
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Old 06-02-12, 10:26 AM
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Getting rid of your stock only matters if you got no prospect to sell it otherwise.
I suspect that's the case with most Groupon deals. It would explain why half price sushi comes up so often.
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