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Old 14-07-11, 05:22 PM
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Default Debt Ceiling Cliff Hanger: Will the Tea Party destroy America?

Republicans in Disarray! Film at 11!
By Kevin Drum
Wed Jul. 13, 2011

What really happened at Wednesday's debt ceiling talks? It's hard to say for sure, but apparently Eric Cantor repeatedly proposed some kind of short-term extension of the debt ceiling that President Obama had already said he wouldn't support, and then interrupted to propose it yet again as Obama was wrapping up the meeting. Depending on who you listen to, Obama either "stormed out," or left "angrily," or left "abruptly," or simply left after telling Cantor they'd meet again tomorrow. One way or another, though, it looks like Obama finally got fed up with Cantor's antics and warned him not to try calling his bluff. Joe Klein provides narration:

David Rogers over at Politico, who has been doing this — extremely well — for about as long as I have, has word that the President of the United States monstered down on Representative Eric Cantor in Wednesday’s deficit ceiling squabble. This is so refreshing on so many levels. Cantor has been using this crisis to undermine his leader John Boehner, by playing the Tea Party/Grover Norquist recalcitrance card. The boy badly needed someone to get up in his face and Barack Obama, of all people, apparently did, telling Cantor, in no uncertain terms, that he’d veto any short term deficit ceiling fix or, indeed, any plan that did not include revenue increases. Then Obama walked out, or the meeting ended, depending on whom you talk to.

So what we have now is the Republican party in, yes, disarray — a word used to describe Democrats almost exclusively, back in the day before the crazies took over the GOP store. You have Cantor and the House Teasies opposing any revenue increases, including a tax loophole closing plan that Ronald Reagan and Edmund Burke would have smiled upon. You have Boehner, struck dumb apparently, after his attempt at bipartisan statesmanship with the President was greeted by tossed shoes and catcalls from the Teasies. You have Mitch McConnell, well, I’m speechless about Mitch McConnell….

Republicans in disarray! And apparently even Lindsey Graham agrees. Here he is admitting to reporters that Republicans have been playing games all along:

Our problem is we made a big deal about this for three months. How many Republicans have been on TV saying, "I’m not going to raise the debt limit." You know, Mitch [McConnell] says, "I’m not going to raise the debt limit unless we talk about Medicare." And I’ve said I’m not going to raise the debt limit until we do something about spending and entitlements. So we’ve got nobody to blame but ourselves. We shouldn’t have said that if we didn’t mean it.

Republicans now seem to be a hair's breadth away from outright panic. Graham is right: at this point, no matter how desperately they try to pretend that it's Obama standing in the way of a deal (and that's clearly the conservative talking point of the day), it's simply too obvious that it's Republicans who are unwilling to say yes. Obama is almost embarrassingly eager for a deal, but they won't agree to send him a clean debt ceiling increase, they won't agree to a grand bargain, they won't agree to a medium-sized bargain, and they won't agree to revenue increases even in the form of closing virtually indefensible loopholes on hedge fund moguls and other assorted members of the millionaire class. Hell, a sizeable chunk of the GOP's tea party faction actively thinks that default would be a great thing. They're practically slavering over the possibility while their leaders watch slack jawed, wondering just how you explain to these guys that, yes, pressing that red button over there would be really, really bad.

The tea party was pretty useful to the GOP leadership for a while. But now it's gone from being a handy campaign tailwind to a Force 5 hurricane on a path to destroy the country, and they don't know what to do about it. Under other circumstances it might be fun to watch them all get their comeuppance over this, but not if means turning America into a banana republic along the way. They better figure out what to do with their problem children, and they better figure it out fast.
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Old 14-07-11, 05:25 PM
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Fredfredson,

I'd like your take on that. Do you feel that it'd be "good" to let the USA default? After all, you've been a proponent of letting overleveraged banks go to the wall to purge the system... Still feel the same way?
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Old 14-07-11, 08:25 PM
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No. But they should just cancel the debt.
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Old 15-07-11, 09:39 AM
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Well, that's the same thing, more or less.

I mean, I am not against the US cancelling some of their debt against some specific targets (say, China - although, remember, wars have been declared over far less than partial debt cancellation) but all of it?

SS would be penniless instantly and I am not sure what it'd mean for the Fed... Okay, so it's all gvt at the end of the day but... And you certainly do not want to cancel the US debt owed by USA-based retirement funds... That would be committing more than political suicide.
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Old 15-07-11, 10:06 AM
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They can at least ditch the $1.7 Tril the Fed lent to itself.

At any rate... it might not be what people "WANT" to do... but you tell me how else this is going to end?

You could do a 100% flat tax, eliminate Medicare, Medicaid, the entire Defense Department.... Its still not enough to get ahead of the debt. Which is going to be $16 Tril+ after they raise the debt ceiling.

Marshall Plan 2.0 baby!

Everything else is just slow, pointless torture for the vanishing middle class and least politically represented... AKA the majority of the country.
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Old 15-07-11, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by AnonymousIdiotSavant View Post
They can at least ditch the $1.7 Tril the Fed lent to itself.
The whole point here is to try and generate a bit of inflation... If it kicks the economy into gear (it won't but that's another issue), it'd be worthwhile...

Quote:
You could do a 100% flat tax, eliminate Medicare, Medicaid, the entire Defense Department.... Its still not enough to get ahead of the debt. Which is going to be $16 Tril+ after they raise the debt ceiling.
Huh? How do you calculate that? USA GDP is $15 Tr a year or thereabout. Taxing 100% of it (obviously impossible but you mentioned it) would solve the issue within 1 year. No one is asking for that, evidently. But simply raising the overall fiscal pressure in the US from its current 24-27% of GDP to something like 35-39% (UK) would mean 1.5 Tr more a year (give or take a few hundred billions) - Over 10 years, that would eliminate the existing debt...

It wouldn't be that simple because raising taxes may have adverse economic consequences and, of course, raising more revenues doesn't help if the debt keeps growing.

But it is by no means 'unpayable' or whatever. Certainly not if you start talking about sorting Medicaid, Medicare and the rest of the SS and DoD...
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Old 15-07-11, 02:51 PM
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The Tea Party has lost perspective on what it costs to operate a country, including reasonably effective government. According to these 2009 figures, proportion of a nation's total GDP taken by tax is:

  • United States: 28
  • Switzerland: 30
  • Australia: 31
  • UK: 37
  • Denmark: 49

Switzerland and Australia are both reasonably well functioning politically and economically on a little more government take from the GDP than the US. Why the difference?

Firstly: health system. The US one is outrageously expensive, especially considering its spotty coverage and the nation's infant mortality and life expectancy.

Secondly: military. The US expends almost half of the global total spent on military expenditure on its war machine.

Thirdly: subsidies to the rich: wide acre corn farmers, ethanol producers, coal miners and more.

Neither Switzerland nor Australia has such problems - at least to the same extent. I guess that to support its spending aspirations, the US tax take should be closer to the UK level of 37% - a proposition that the Tea Party would die rather than agree to.

Rahm Emannuel once observed that ‪Rahm Emanuel: You never want a serious crisis to go to waste‬‏ - YouTube.

If Obama sticks to his guns over the national debt limit, he could be blessed with a serious crisis.

We will see.
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Old 15-07-11, 02:59 PM
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Worried About Debt Limit? The Bond Market Isn?t: Caroline Baum - Bloomberg

Worried About Debt Limit? The Bond Market Isn’t

By Caroline Baum Jul 15,

Caroline Baum, a columnist for Bloomberg News since 1998, is the author of "Just What I Said: Bloomberg Economics Columnist Takes on Bonds, Banks, Budgets and Bubbles."

Failure to raise the U.S.’s $14.3 trillion debt ceiling by Aug. 2 “could plunge the world economy back in recession,” President Barack Obama said. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner called it “unthinkably damaging,” and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said congressional inaction could result in “a huge financial calamity.”

Everyone from Warren Buffett to Bill Gross to Robert Rubin is weighing in, calling it totally irresponsible.

This week, as negotiations between the president and leaders of Congress hit an impasse, Moody’s Investors Service placed the U.S.’s Aaa rating, in place since 1917, on review for a possible downgrade. Yet the one entity that stands to feel the direct impact of any such action by Moody’s, or inaction by Congress on the debt ceiling, is taking the whole thing in stride. That entity is the bond market.

With 18 days left before Aug. 2, the yield on the 10-year Treasury note is comfortably below 3. The 10-year rallied 45 basis points in the days after the July 7 release of the employment report for June, which offered no good news on the labor market.

Policy makers keep warning that failure to act would mean an immediate surge in borrowing costs, leading to higher interest payments on the federal debt and a bigger fiscal hole for government. So why is the bond market trading like a passive observer?

Comparative Advantage
One popular explanation I’ll call the “least bad alternative.” As inept as Washington may be, the U.S. “still looks pretty good compared to the risks associated with European debt,” says Ward McCarthy, chief financial economist at Jeffries & Co.

Traders, subscribing to a version of the least-bad theory, said they think stocks would get hammered on any debt-limit breach, sparking a flight-to-quality into Treasuries. What’s more, the disruption in government transfer payments could have a temporary restraining effect on the economy, increasing demand for government bonds.

Another possibility is that investors know the U.S. Treasury can prioritize payments. There is adequate revenue coming in to make interest payments on the debt, thereby averting a technical default, and to cover Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid benefits.

An alternative explanation is that the bond market has seen this movie before and can write the script. It goes something like this:

1. Democrats and Republicans play chicken with the debt limit, fanning worst-possible fears to gain maximum concessions from the other party.

2. The president scares seniors by telling CBS News he can’t guarantee that Social Security checks will go out as planned on Aug. 3 without congressional action on the debt ceiling.

3. Congressional phone lines light up with seniors asking how Representative What’s-His-Name can be so irresponsible as to deprive old folks of their monthly checks, putting them in a position of choosing between eating dog food or starving.

4. The president and Congress, invoking the “235-year history of this great nation,” announce they have come together to save the American people from an unimagined fate. The debt ceiling is raised, what started as a grand bargain on deficit reduction and tax reform is a measly bunch of spending cuts and loophole fixes on paper that don’t amount to much in reality. The big decisions on the U.S.’s unsustainable fiscal imbalance are kicked down the road.

5. Treasuries sell off, and everyone wonders why.

The denouement may take awhile to unfold. In the short run, the ebb and flow of the economic data -- mostly ebbing right now -- are the major determinant of the direction and level of Treasury yields. That’s why bond yields fall during recession, even as the deficit balloons.

Deficits don’t matter -- until they do. Interest rates seldom provide an advance warning of a debt crisis, according to a July 13 Bloomberg View op-ed article by economists Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff, authors of “This Time Is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly.”

The bond market, in its infinite wisdom, may realize the issue is the federal debt itself, not the debt limit. Not much point wasting a lot of time and energy on the dress rehearsal
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Old 15-07-11, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Fredfredson,

I'd like your take on that. Do you feel that it'd be "good" to let the USA default? After all, you've been a proponent of letting overleveraged banks go to the wall to purge the system... Still feel the same way?
About the banks? You bet. A collapse back in 08 would have left the American Government with it's AAA rating, plus the unemployment picture was nowhere near as grim at that point.

A 'functional default' of the US Government at this point will be a major disaster no question. Frankly this is a tipping point trigger that might result in a much worse result than a financial collapse in 08.

This is precisely the kind of mess I think is the result of NOT letting the system reset before. If we muddle through this with some kind of back room wrangling the next tipping point will be worse again.

As nasty as this mess could be come August 2, maybe we should let it go ... shudder... not that it will be a fun ride.

F
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Old 15-07-11, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FredFredson View Post
Frankly this is a tipping point trigger that might result in a much worse result than a financial collapse in 08.
Okay - Please don't take this as a personal challenge but do you have any reasoning as to why that would be the case?

Because, as far as I can tell, both would be similar - The entire economy would instantly collapse as money become entirely worthless.
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