TheNewTopical.com - current events, politics, culture, ethics, economics discussion forum  

Go Back   TheNewTopical.com - current events, politics, culture, ethics, economics discussion forum » Main Forum » Fundamental Change

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-11, 08:58 AM
Zichao's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,037
Default Nick Clegg's right. It's time to start means-testing pensioners

The gap between the very rich and the rest continues to grow. Today's report by the OECD does little more than confirm what we knew. All countries indulged the wealthy, and the UK was one of the worst miscreants.

But the problem went far wider and deeper than the bankers and their friends. This group might have stolen most of the cream, and done it most ostentatiously, but they were only following a broader societal pattern of consumerist entitlement. Entitlement is the word that defines my generation. In my late 40s, I just squeeze into the baby boomer category, although as I set out in my working life I was equally defined by the Thatcher years. As the UK and Europe prepare for many more years of belt-tightening, it is perhaps salutary to recognise what some voters believe is theirs by right.

Last December, as freezing fog shut down Heathrow and other airports, the BBC led its main evening news with the headline "misery", as thousands of passengers had their Christmas holidays to Australia, South Africa and other warm climes delayed or cancelled. Nobody would want to be in their situation, particularly those who had saved for months or years for their long-haul adventure. But misery this wasn't. Misery is homelessness, war, famine, a sudden bereavement or long-term unemployment.

Underlying the supposed suffering of the "squeezed middle" is the realisation of having to get used to a lower quality of life: eating out less; shopping less for inessential items; trading down on holidays. Again, this is not to wish such an outcome on anyone but to put some perspective on the impending double-dip recession. As if to emphasise my point, the police felt the need at the weekend to close off Oxford Street because the combination of construction works and large crowds was deemed dangerous. Large crowds? Christmas shopping? More misery, maybe?

I was struck by a description of the "squeezed middle" by a blogger in the Huffington Post. Describing it as a "revolting turn of phrase", Sean Faye wrote: "It makes me imagine a duvet of corpulent, middle-aged flesh erupting from a particularly binding pair of M&S control pants". He was equally dismissive of the term "lost generation" to discuss him and his peers.

Which brings me to Nick Clegg, the apparent scourge of the nation's youth. Over the weekend the deputy prime minister and Liberal Democrat leader suggested that benefits such as the winter fuel allowance and free bus pass should be means-tested. He admitted that he had tried to push these items on to the chancellor's autumn statement but was rebuffed. It is easy to understand why.

George Osborne and David Cameron have made a straightforward political assessment. Why antagonise most voters, who already feel so hard done by? The "grey vote" (apologies for succumbing to generational generalisations) holds our politicians in a vice-like grip. These folk, who came into their formative years in the 1960s, enjoyed high state provision, were paid for going to university, and expected a job on graduation. Now in or around their 60s, they have worked hard – or who have convinced themselves that they have – and believe they are entitled to the few universal baubles remaining.

Means testing is not an efficient way of handing out money. But if the purpose of a benefit is to give it to those who need it then I'm not sure of the alternative. As Clegg put it: "We should be asking millionaire pensioners to perhaps make a little sacrifice on their free TV licence or their free bus passes." Some high-profile figures are doing so already. The Surviving Winter Appeal, supported by the likes of Michael Parkinson, Jonathan Dimbleby, Ann Widdecombe and Joan Bakewell, calls on the better-off to hand over their winter fuel allowance – worth up to £300 a year to every pensioner household – to those in greater need. This scheme is to be applauded, but essential welfare decisions should not be determined by charity.

Around 12 million people in the UK are eligible for free bus travel, and it is estimated that more than nine million hold a bus pass. Giving free TV licences to over 75 year-olds costs the taxpayer more than £550m a year. It is vital to help the many in pensioner poverty who struggle to pay their bills, yet I am not entirely sure how benefits like these are relevant to the tens of thousands in the private and public sector who took early retirement in order to play golf or enjoy their winters abroad.

As the previous Labour government used to proclaim, in times of plenty a government can afford to be generous to the comfortable as well as the hard up. Fuelling the consumption habits of an ageing population was not, however, especially responsible. Robert Peston's BBC series, The Party's Over: How the West Went Bust, this weekend featured a number of experts belatedly lamenting a policy of encouraging a middle class and aspiring middle class to fund an unaffordable lifestyle on the back of mortgages and other borrowing.

Hard choices are now being made. A battle will be fought over priorities ahead of the next comprehensive spending review. Osborne's autumn statement reinforced suspicions that the Conservatives do not understand the extent of the anger targeted on the bankers who brought the country to ruin and then cashed in their bonuses. The efforts to rein them in now – after been indulged by Tories and Labour alike – are welcome. But they smack of window dressing.

It is the young who are paying for this rising inequality in a vicious circle of higher educational costs and perilously low employment prospects. This is where attention should be focused, and where scarce resources should be targeted. Many people in the shires will struggle to afford that new conservatory and might have to hold on to their car for a bit longer than they would have wished. But like their cancelled or delayed holiday, that does not constitute misery. What does is the prospect of many young people struggling to find work.

The government will continue to launch the odd initiative to help alleviate youth unemployment, making sure that cameras are there for the ministerial photo-opportunity. But something tells me that Cameron and Osborne will struggle to do more than that: come 2015, this is not where the crucial votes are to be found.Twitter@johnkampfner John Kampfner | Home

Nick Clegg's right. It's time to start means-testing pensioners | John Kampfner | Comment is free | The Guardian
__________________
Standard disclaimer: the disgusting statements contained in this post are the views of the poster, and unless specified do not represent the views of the moderators or the site's owners.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-11, 09:43 AM
Gilles de Rais's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,639
Default

Mean-testing is quite common in France, for benefits, I think. It seems to work fine. And pretty much everyone agrees - on the concept, if not the cut-off points.
__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-11, 11:01 AM
contracycle's Avatar
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,149
Default

Yeah and then if we means test we'll end up with cases where the cut-off makes people with a quid or two over the margin subject to all costs, leading to them being worse off and acting as a disincentive to private pensions, or we'll end up with massive system to adjust everything precisely will which will impose huge costs and cause headlines about errors and iniquities. And so around the merry-go-round we go, again, this time with a dash of fucking stupid "generation war" shite that serves as a convenient distraction from the real issues.

There are good arguments for universal benefits, whether they be the sense of unity they engender or avoiding the risk of writing them down till virtually nobody benefits or the odious concerns over distinguishing the "deserving" poor from the "underserving".
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-11, 11:07 AM
Zichao's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,037
Default

Which, by some happy coincidence, means that my already tiny income gets the fuck taxed out of it to pay for millionnaires' free tv licences.

How making me pissed off and resentful is supposed to help the workers' struggle, I'm not entirely sure.

Yeah, some people will be irritated if we set up a cut-off point. Tough shit.
__________________
Standard disclaimer: the disgusting statements contained in this post are the views of the poster, and unless specified do not represent the views of the moderators or the site's owners.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-11, 11:34 AM
contracycle's Avatar
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,149
Default

Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Which, by some happy coincidence, means that my already tiny income gets the fuck taxed out of it to pay for millionnaires' free tv licences.
So, tax the millionaires more. Job done.

Quote:
How making me pissed off and resentful is supposed to help the workers' struggle, I'm not entirely sure.
Trimming benefits till the last "deserving" individual is finally identified certainly won't.

Quote:
Yeah, some people will be irritated if we set up a cut-off point. Tough shit.
And then there'll be hysterical articles in the press, and a "something must be done" brigade, and we'll just take another circuit round the same track.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-11, 11:41 AM
Catwoman's Avatar
Cat Ninja
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 101
Default

I tend to agree with contracycle means testing is stupid and do not think this government will strictly do the testing on income. You could for instance be in a situation where your house is worth 1million but your actual income is below 9000 pa. ironically you end up dieting of hypothermia being a millionaire on paper.
__________________
“Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has appeared in the world.”

- Winston Churchill - Prime Minister of Great Britain
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-11, 11:43 AM
Gilles de Rais's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,639
Default

Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Yeah and then if we means test we'll end up with cases where the cut-off makes people with a quid or two over the margin subject to all costs, leading to them being worse off and acting as a disincentive to private pensions, or we'll end up with massive system to adjust everything precisely will which will impose huge costs and cause headlines about errors and iniquities.
You could always adjust things via a curved function... I mean, nowadays, we got graphic calculators and shit.

Quote:
And so around the merry-go-round we go, again, this time with a dash of fucking stupid "generation war" shite that serves as a convenient distraction from the real issues.
Again, why can't their be more than one bad guy to your story?

Quote:
... or the odious concerns over distinguishing the "deserving" poor from the "undeserving".
Errrr... I think you will find that people do care about that. Goes to 'fairness'. People don't want to finance lazy and/or 'undeserving' people. As your tale showed, it might be a problem with the fairies being badly designed but that's the kind of thinking that does lead to the 'reforms' we've had so far, with controls and "do public work for free in order to get your support payment"...
__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-11, 11:46 AM
Gilles de Rais's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,639
Default

Originally Posted by Catwoman View Post
I tend to agree with contracycle means testing is stupid and do not think this government will strictly do the testing on income.
Well, should they? After all, the size of your assets matter... and what is 'income'? Believe me, it can become quite tricky as you go up the ladder of wealth.

Quote:
You could for instance be in a situation where your house is worth 1million but your actual income is below 9,000 pa. ironically you end up dieting of hypothermia being a millionaire on paper.
Maybe people should sell their million $ houses and move somewhere cheaper and use the difference as capital?
__________________
Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.

Last edited by Gilles de Rais; 06-12-11 at 11:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-11, 12:13 PM
Zichao's Avatar
Moderator
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,037
Default

Quote:
So, tax the millionaires more. Job done.
To which I obviously reply:

"Yeah and then if we means test we'll end up with cases where the cut-off makes people with a quid or two over the margin subject to all costs, leading to them being worse off and acting as a disincentive to private pensions, or we'll end up with massive system to adjust everything precisely will which will impose huge costs and cause headlines about errors and iniquities."

Not that great an excuse.

Quote:
Trimming benefits till the last "deserving" individual is finally identified certainly won't.
Well it'll make more poor people angry at the government, and hence likely to revolt. Convincing me that the socialists are more interested in tilting at 19th century windmills than my welfare won't even do that.

Quote:
And then there'll be hysterical articles in the press, and a "something must be done" brigade, and we'll just take another circuit round the same track.
Well yeah, but I could say the same thing about any policy ever. Did Che Guevara say "Well I would smash the system, but Melanie Philips'll say nasty things about me in her blog"?

Quote:
I tend to agree with contracycle means testing is stupid and do not think this government will strictly do the testing on income. You could for instance be in a situation where your house is worth 1million but your actual income is below 9000 pa. ironically you end up dieting of hypothermia being a millionaire on paper.
Yes, I've always aregued that revenues from capital should be taxed, rather than the capital itself.
__________________
Standard disclaimer: the disgusting statements contained in this post are the views of the poster, and unless specified do not represent the views of the moderators or the site's owners.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-11, 03:18 PM
contracycle's Avatar
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,149
Default

Originally Posted by Zichao View Post
Not that great an excuse.
But the top tax band is only about 150k. There's plenty of room upwards for more progressive banding.

Quote:
Well it'll make more poor people angry at the government, and hence likely to revolt.
Or, turn to crime, or pay day lenders, or the black economy etc.

Quote:
Convincing me that the socialists are more interested in tilting at 19th century windmills than my welfare won't even do that.
Derserving versus undeserving is precisely such a windmill which I am suggesting we ignore. It is perfectly reasonable to say: we will support every child to this degee, every school place to this amount, every household with this much heating, every elderly person with this much pension, becuaser this sets a floor on all living standards.

Quote:
Well yeah, but I could say the same thing about any policy ever. Did Che Guevara say "Well I would smash the system, but Melanie Philips'll say nasty things about me in her blog"?
But we don't have Che, we have the parties we have.
Reply With Quote
Reply


(View-All Members who have read this thread : 5
AnonymousIdiotSavant, Catwoman, contracycle, Gilles de Rais, Zichao
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0