Sure they are, the stereotype of the "child abuse survivor".

To a certain extent I'm over simplifying here just for the sake of argument. Actually it looks like there are basically two Fregosos - the kid version who doesn't have any preconceptions about what she's supposed to like and dislike, and the adult version who lives in a world where a multi-billion dollar counselling industry tells us what to think. She basically says "actually I quite liked it but now I'm in counselling for PTSD", which a priori makes no sense. My bet is that this is a case of the trauma actually being produced by social expectations. Greek and Roman kids who got raped just got up and went on with their lives - sure it wasn't fun but it was just something that happened, like twisting your ankle playing football. These days if a kid gets raped society expects their whole life to be fucked up as a result. If society suddenly decided that, say, putting on nativity plays was a disgusting perverted act then suddenly we'd have everyone who's ever been in one queuing up for counselling, turning to booze and going on Oprah to have a good cry. Sure the trauma would be real, but not the necessary consequence of being in a nativity play (I was an angel and clopped two bits of wood together during the singing of Little Donkey) but rather the product of society's expectations.

Of course, in saying all this I'm putting my own spin on something I know nothing about, exactly what I condemned the people in the OP for doing, but at least I put some genuine thought into it.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

Sure they are, the stereotype of the "child abuse survivor".

Stereotypes are "standardised and simplified". These people may have speculated, but none has treated the autor in a standardised or simplified manner as far as I can see.

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She basically says "actually I quite liked it but now I'm in counselling for PTSD", which a priori makes no sense.

No it doesn't make sense, but as soon as you get over the idea of humans being relentlessly consistent that ceases to be surprising.

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My bet is that this is a case of the trauma actually being produced by social expectations. Greek and Roman kids who got raped just got up and went on with their lives - sure it wasn't fun but it was just something that happened, like twisting your ankle playing football.

You don't know that because you can't know it, there is no evidence for it whatsoever, and I find it extraordinarily unlikely to be true in any sense at all. And indeed, as I;'ve pointed out before, the endemic violence of these societies makes a good case for a sizable chunk of the population being traumatised in one form or another but without any way to deal with it except through further infliction of damage on others. I would, and have, made much the same case for many animals.

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These days if a kid gets raped society expects their whole life to be fucked up as a result.

For the good reason that it often is.

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If society suddenly decided that, say, putting on nativity plays was a disgusting perverted act then suddenly we'd have everyone who's ever been in one queuing up for counselling, turning to booze and going on Oprah to have a good cry. Sure the trauma would be real, but not the necessary consequence of being in a nativity play (I was an angel and clopped two bits of wood together during the singing of Little Donkey) but rather the product of society's expectations.

Which I think is, to be blunt, total bullshit. And I'm at the high end of support for the view on social construction, but this is taking the blank slate argument to unprecedented levels.

I suffered from a small degree of PTSD myself. I was in a vary unpleasent car accident, and for a long time afterward I was terrified of being in cars. Even very sedate driving cased me to tense up and brace myself for a collision. It was not something I had control over, and only slowly, over many years - not helped by being in another accident later - has it become less intense. But even now it persists to some degree, and not long ago when Psyche's man was driving us around, I got some of it again, because his driving style is quite fast and aggressive. I have never learned to drive for precisely this reason.

Trauma is not a joke. It is not socially constructed. Nor is it some kind of error in thought; in both my accidents I was actually pretty calm throughout. It was only when actually exposed to cars again that I had any inkling of the effects, and they were totally autonomic.

People are biological machines. Those machines have their own "operating systems" that are millions of years older than our conscious minds. Sex and death are two of the things that they control precisely because they are so ancient and so fundamental to our existence. To speculate that Fragoso is suffering from some sort of trauma is a thoroughly reasonable deduction.

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Stereotypes are "standardised and simplified". These people may have speculated, but none has treated the autor in a standardised or simplified manner as far as I can see.

They've ignored her insistence that she was happy with the situation. Either it's a total coincidence or they're trying to explain it away because it doesn't fit in with their preconceptions.

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No it doesn't make sense, but as soon as you get over the idea of humans being relentlessly consistent that ceases to be surprising.

So why aren't there people showing up wanting counselling for all sorts of random stuff that they enjoyed at the time but have now changed their minds about? "I used to love jelly and icecream when I was a kid, but now it freaks me out! Help me, doc!"

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You don't know that because you can't know it, there is no evidence for it whatsoever, and I find it extraordinarily unlikely to be true in any sense at all. And indeed, as I;'ve pointed out before, the endemic violence of these societies makes a good case for a sizable chunk of the population being traumatised in one form or another but without any way to deal with it except through further infliction of damage on others. I would, and have, made much the same case for many animals.

For the good reason that it often is.Well it's certainly the impression you get from literature. I don't recall reading about anyone traumatised by teh bumsecks in Latin and Greek literature. Actually, if you look at, say, Greek theatre it's pretty much they only thing they weren't traumatised by.

If they were all fucked up by it I don't think they'd have turned it into epic romance (like in the Illiad) or comedy (Petronius).

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Which I think is, to be blunt, total bullshit. And I'm at the high end of support for the view on social construction, but this is taking the blank slate argument to unprecedented levels. I suffered from a small degree of PTSD myself. I was in a vary unpleasent car accident, and for a long time afterward I was terrified of being in cars. Even very sedate driving cased me to tense up and brace myself for a collision. It was not something I had control over, and only slowly, over many years - not helped by being in another accident later - has it become less intense. But even now it persists to some degree, and not long ago when Psyche's man was driving us around, I got some of it again, because his driving style is quite fast and aggressive. I have never learned to drive for precisely this reason. Trauma is not a joke. It is not socially constructed. Nor is it some kind of error in thought; in both my accidents I was actually pretty calm throughout. It was only when actually exposed to cars again that I had any inkling of the effects, and they were totally autonomic. People are biological machines. Those machines have their own "operating systems" that are millions of years older than our conscious minds. Sex and death are two of the things that they control precisely because they are so ancient and so fundamental to our existence. To speculate that Fragoso is suffering from some sort of trauma is a thoroughly reasonable deduction.

In some cases it's the product of an experience, in some cases it's the product of social expectations.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

They've ignored her insistence that she was happy with the situation. Either it's a total coincidence or they're trying to explain it away because it doesn't fit in with their preconceptions.

Or becuase there are good clinial reasons for doing so.

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So why aren't there people showing up wanting counselling for all sorts of random stuff that they enjoyed at the time but have now changed their minds about? "I used to love jelly and icecream when I was a kid, but now it freaks me out! Help me, doc!"

Because those things aren't important enough to be traumatic.

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Well it's certainly the impression you get from literature. I don't recall reading about anyone traumatised by teh bumsecks in Latin and Greek literature. Actually, if you look at, say, Greek theatre it's pretty much they only thing they weren't traumatised by.

I don't that you would expect consenting gay sex to be traumatic. A captive slave repeatedly rape by their owner would be a rather different matter.

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If they were all fucked up by it I don't think they'd have turned it into epic romance (like in the Illiad) or comedy (Petronius).

Achilles is the post child for combat induced PTSD, exhibiting rage, alienation and guilt. Plus, comedy doesn't mean gentle, and laughter is a complex thing in its own right given that it is rooted in displays of aggression. so I don't think that necessarily follows.

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In some cases it's the product of an experience, in some cases it's the product of social expectations.

I'm not ruling out some effect from social conditioning, which is what we're really talking about, but I do not think humans are infinitely malleable plasticine puppets. Indeed as Pavlov's experiments demonstrated, sufficient stress can cause the brain to ditch it's conditioning, becuase it is no longer useful as a survival tool. So I think you have it the wrong way round; it is inherent biological programming that is dominant, and social conditioning can only ever moderate the experience of genuine stress and trauma, at best.

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Or becuase there are good clinial reasons for doing so.

There are good reasons for minding their own damn business too, but you won't catch them doing that.

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Because those things aren't important enough to be traumatic.

Says who? Is there a panel that decides what's important enough? People get traumatised all the time by stuff that they've imagined (false memory syndrome). At least jelly and icecream has the virtue of being real.

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I don't that you would expect consenting gay sex to be traumatic. A captive slave repeatedly rape by their owner would be a rather different matter.

I don't really think they had the same concept of rape as us. Ours is essentially a Victorian idea. They were a lot more earthy - communal toilets and all the rest of it.

In any case, I think most household slaves got treated pretty well. It was the ones working for big business that had it bad, but that wasn't personal or anything.

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Achilles is the post child for combat induced PTSD, exhibiting rage, alienation and guilt. Plus, comedy doesn't mean gentle, and laughter is a complex thing in its own right given that it is rooted in displays of aggression. so I don't think that necessarily follows.

Rage - well possibly, but he was in a war after all; it's pretty much on the job description. Alienation - I don't even know what this is. Guilt - as well he may, it was his hissy fit that got Patroclus killed after all.

Re comedy - very few jokes about child rape on modern tv. In Greek and especially Roman comedy it was everywhere.

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I'm not ruling out some effect from social conditioning, which is what we're really talking about, but I do not think humans are infinitely malleable plasticine puppets. Indeed as Pavlov's experiments demonstrated, sufficient stress can cause the brain to ditch it's conditioning, becuase it is no longer useful as a survival tool. So I think you have it the wrong way round; it is inherent biological programming that is dominant, and social conditioning can only ever moderate the experience of genuine stress and trauma, at best.

How do you explain false memory syndrome then?

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