Originally Posted by contracycle

Tha is not what I was referring to.

I obviously understood but that's my point. Every power on earth is relative (sex-appeal, money, hierarchies, traditions etc) and require the consent of the 'target'/'victim'... Except violence. That is absolute.

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Nope. I said that the difference you SEE is cultural, but that its also clearly not what is actually happening.

Is that one of those distinction without consequence? Look, next time we meet for a drink, I'll go to some of the ladies who will be drinking at the bar/pub counter. We'll see if any of them accept my offer of free, safe sex for the evening. I can pretty much guarantee a 100% 'no' - And, while I am no movie star, I'd say that I am around average (lost a bit of weight, yihaa!) so my chances ought to be 50%...

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Which is like saying that they wouldn't have the job if they weren't white. Yes, thats the problem.

Are you telling me that being white i.e. discriminated in your favour is not the same as exercising an unfair advantage i.e. having some (relative) power?

i.e. women willing and able to exercise their sex-appeal have some (relative) power?

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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais

I obviously understood but that's my point. Every power on earth is relative (sex-appeal, money, hierarchies, traditions etc) and require the consent of the 'target'/'victim'... Except violence. That is absolute.

I don't see how money requires consent, and everything is pretty much backed up by violence one way or the other.

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Is that one of those distinction without consequence? Look, next time we meet for a drink, I'll go to some of the ladies who will be drinking at the bar/pub counter. We'll see if any of them accept my offer of free, safe sex for the evening. I can pretty much guarantee a 100% 'no' - And, while I am no movie star, I'd say that I am around average (lost a bit of weight, yihaa!) so my chances ought to be 50%...

Well, I would agree with your prognosis, not least because that will come off as creepy and weird. But let me tell you a story. One day I was at a friends house were he was holding a party, and so we were all sitting around a table drinking. Opposite me was a girl who was the best friend of the hosts girlfriend, whom I shall call P. About mid-way through the evening I was astonished to discover a stockinged foot in my lap and toes kneading my crotch, while P. was looking me straight in the eye. Not long after this, she announced she was feeling tired and was going home and offered me a lift, which I accepted. And thus she carried me off.

There's never been any romantic interest between P. and myself, either before or since. Neither has this event ever been mentioned, to each other or to others. Quite possibly the relevant factor is that I was already known to be leaving for the UK soonish, which relieved any danger of an further developments. It was what it was, just that one evening, with absolutely no strings attached. And not only was this done right under other peoples noses, but to this day none of the others knows that it even happened (AFAIK - the best friend might, but hasn't mentioned it either).

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Are you telling me that being white i.e. discriminated in your favour is not the same as exercising an unfair advantage i.e. having some (relative) power?

I don't think they are the same. Being white is passive, actually holding power is active. Whcih is I have mentioned one of the problems I had with being in SA - I couldn't control the fact that other people, like employers, would be using the real power they had in a way that I benefitted from, even if I didn't want it.

Originally Posted by contracycle

I don't see how money requires consent...

If you don't care about money, it has no power over you. That was the basis for a comic story whereby a guy was trying to work for a big business boss who wanted someone assassinated. He was a random joey, an amateur but he needed the prize money because his wife or gf was in the hospital. He failed to carry out the required assassination but, by then his wife/gf is dead - And when he meet Big Bad Boss, he tells him "I tried but I failed. OTOH, I just wanted the money to save my wife/gf whom you crushed while drunk driving. So, now I will kill you. BLAM BLAM". Ending sentence is "The difference between amateurs and pro is that amateurs kill for reasons other than money"...

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... and everything is pretty much backed up by violence one way or the other.

Not really. Your boss cannot lift a finger on you and yet you still obey instructions. Ditto traditions. That's the point. Yes, eventually, breaking these regularly may result in unpleasant side effects (ostracism, being fired etc) but they are not explicitedly compelled by violence. As to opposed to a mugging. If I say "Your wallet or you're dead", technically, whether you say 'yes' or 'no' doesn't matter - In one case, I get your wallet, in the other, I take it from your dead body - End result is the same (NB: I understand that it doesn't work like that in our real, western, world but this is made up to illustrate the differences).

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Well, I would agree with your prognosis, not least because that will come off as creepy and weird.

Oh, I can make it sound casual and fun... "My friend and I are debating a point about women and men dating. I say women are more cautious and reserved, my friend insists that this is just a misperception etc etc...". I can make the delivery within less than 45 sec, an acceptable time frame for a chat up line.

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Quite possibly the relevant factor is that I was already known to be leaving for the UK soonish, which relieved any danger of an further developments.

Indeed. As you pointed out, women are more 'liberated' on vacation trips too. That's great but since I don't live in a beach town or vacation centre, it doesn't do much for me. The fact remains (and, really, you're conceding) that, within normal circumstances, single men want 'some' more than they can actually get... Again, I don't disagree tremendously with you as to the possible causes of that situation (I like evo. psy. a bit more but I would concede it's hardly undebatable proof and evo. psy. has women actually quite active and willing - just with a slightly more select number of partners). The point remains that sex-appeal is, imho, more common for women than men (because average sex-appeal will cut it for women while men tend to need larger doses of it for it to work) and can be effectively used by some women.

And, if I ever was to switch for a short while to being a woman, that's the kind of woman I'd want to be...

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I don't think they are the same. Being white is passive, actually holding power is active.

I understand what you say but I'd say that making sure you're noticed and dropping comments such as "c'mon, you're not going to give my job to some kaffir, are you?" is an active play on a passive aspect of yours... Just as smiling and batting eye lashes when you're pretty is an active play on a passive aspect...

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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais

If you don't care about money, it has no power over you.

Pious moralism. Tell that to starving.

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Not really. Your boss cannot lift a finger on you and yet you still obey instructions.

I didn't say it was immediately enforced by violence. But I am obliged to work within the system, becuase I need to eat and a place to live, and they are all protected by property law which IS certainly enforced by violence. And I do so under protest.

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Indeed. As you pointed out, women are more 'liberated' on vacation trips too. That's great but since I don't live in a beach town or vacation centre, it doesn't do much for me. The fact remains (and, really, you're conceding) that, within normal circumstances, single men want 'some' more than they can actually get...

And once again, you're assuming that apparent is the real, and then relying on the naturalist fallacy. If and when we have a society that treats male and female sexuality the same way, then what you see may well be what you get. But at the moment, when men are more or less encouraged to boast of their sexual exploits, and women are largely criticised for it, then we are not going to have the same levels of public visibility.

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I understand what you say but I'd say that making sure you're noticed and dropping comments such as "c'mon, you're not going to give my job to some kaffir, are you?" is an active play on a passive aspect of yours... Just as smiling and batting eye lashes when you're pretty is an active play on a passive aspect...

But in both cases, I'm not actually exercising power, I'm hoping someone else will exercise power on my behalf.

Originally Posted by contracycle

Pious moralism. Tell that to the starving.

Few people in the West are actually starving. Even homeless people don't. Thus, as in my example, you CAN, if you wish, ignore money - especially for a short while i.e. one "conflict"... Hence, the amateur shot the rich baddie and it didn't matter if the rich baddie proposed the poor amateur millions, he was still going to die, his money of no help to him...

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I didn't say it was immediately enforced by violence. But I am obliged to work within the system, becuase I need to eat and a place to live, and they are all protected by property law which IS certainly enforced by violence. And I do so under protest.

True. But traditions or hierarchies aren't limited to the capitalism system part of our lives. We do things out of habit and we obey some rules out of habit/socialisation, without being actively forced to. Hence, my point - Those things work but are all dependent on the 'victim'/'target' accepting their power over him. Only violence is different.

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And once again, you're assuming that apparent is the real, and then relying on the naturalist fallacy. If and when we have a society that treats male and female sexuality the same way, then what you see may well be what you get. But at the moment, when men are more or less encouraged to boast of their sexual exploits, and women are largely criticised for it, then we are not going to have the same levels of public visibility.

Ok. Are you saying that women really provide as much sex as the market can bear but it is mostly invisible because of the lack of publicity? I mean, I agree that the lack of visibility may complicate my ability to estimate things. OTOH, I don't think there's so much of it going on behind the surface that my inability to see it is all there is to it.

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But in both cases, I'm not actually exercising power, I'm hoping someone else will exercise power on my behalf.

Hence, the point about 'manipulation' and 'female wiles'. When I pay a bodyguard to fuck up a would-be mugger, I too am hoping that someone else will exercise power on my behalf - Instead of smiles and eye lashes batting, I'd be using cold cash but that's the only difference...

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Originally Posted by contracycle

Pious moralism. Tell that to the starving.

Few people in the West are actually starving[/quote]

True enough, but I wasn't referring to the West, today. In someplaces in the middle ages, the price of grain went up pretty quickly by 800% - did that really have "no power"?

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True. But traditions or hierarchies aren't limited to the capitalism system part of our lives. We do things out of habit and we obey some rules out of habit/socialisation, without being actively forced to. Hence, my point - Those things work but are all dependent on the 'victim'/'target' accepting their power over him. Only violence is different.

Well, I think the voluntarism element here is misplaced. Someone getting burned as a witch or heretic probably doesn't accept the tradition that causes this to happen. Nor do I think people really have much choice in the matter; the reproduction of culture has a very high success rate. The locus or power in cvulture, as with everyone else, is control of what gets reproduced. The hand that rocks the cradle etc.

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Ok. Are you saying that women really provide as much sex as the market can bear but it is mostly invisible because of the lack of publicity? I mean, I agree that the lack of visibility may complicate my ability to estimate things. OTOH, I don't think there's so much of it going on behind the surface that my inability to see it is all there is to it.

Sigh. Again I find it facetious to describe this in terms of "supply and demand". In anonymous surveys, unlike idenitfied self-reporting, women report more sexual partners, and men less. It's not just "invisibility", its also men's exaggerated claims of desire and capacity.

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Hence, the point about 'manipulation' and 'female wiles'. When I pay a bodyguard to fuck up a would-be mugger, I too am hoping that someone else will exercise power on my behalf - Instead of smiles and eye lashes batting, I'd be using cold cash but that's the only difference...

Nonsense. You are exercising power. Nor do you acknowledge that it isn't all milk and honey; that poor girl I mentioned who was hired because she was pretty then had a rough relationship with her colleagues, becuase we all had to carry her and cover for her becuase she wasn;t up for the job. If she also got hassled out of envy, or by rebuffed suitors, it would be a pretty unpleasant experience. All of which illustrates the point again - if you are powerful, you are making the decisions.