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Old 07-11-10, 10:28 AM
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Default Only good article written about this stupid Stephen Fry business

Just thought it could use a pat on the back as such.

Pineapple sex is not for us all | Victoria Coren | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

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The fall-out from Stephen Fry's Attitude interview has been fascinating. Everyone queued up to say why Fry was wrong about sex. And then they explained about sex. And they were all wrong.

Now I'm going to tell you what I think about sex. And I'm going to be wrong.

The amazing thing, in a world where a single mis-tap on Google shows us how vast, complex and miscellaneous is the human sexual instinct, is that people, especially columnists, keep thinking there's a "right".

Have you ever tried to write a porn film? I have. I don't recommend it. It's like trying to cook a meal for a million people. Except, instead of some of them being vegetarians and some meat-lovers, some kosher and some halal, some allergic to salt and some addicted to it, there is no "some". Every single one wants something different. And you've only got one saucepan.

In California, they think they've cracked it. My friend Charlie and I, in training to make our porn spectacular, went to meetings in the San Fernando Valley where "adult industry experts" told us… I don't want to shock you over breakfast, so let's just say that we were advised we need seven minutes of this, six minutes of that, one scene in which [x], two scenes in which [y], DEFINITELY NO SCENES in which [z]…

Those businesspeople have identified the most marketable formula. But every viewer would be disappointed by something, and a billion non-viewers would be turned off by all of it, because the sexual psyche is as individual as a fingerprint and no two are the same.

You could make the perfect blue movie for one person, somewhere in the world, by introducing, right in the middle of coitus, a pineapple with a smiley face drawn on it. Of course, you'd ruin it for everyone else. And that one person… nope, it isn't perfect after all. Because the pineapple doesn't have eyebrows. Not like the one in his head.

Personally, I agreed with Stephen Fry. He said that heterosexual men struggle to believe women really like sex. I think the controversial stuff which triggered the rage – about why women don't go cottaging, how they trade sex for a relationship – was not meant to be Fry's own opinion but an extension of that theory, a fleshing-out of the fears in this theoretical straight guy's head.

And I think that's true. I think some men fear that women don't really like it, or only in a decorous kind of way. I think women can mistake this fear for an idealisation (and sometimes it is one) and we all want to be what our lovers want us to be – so we hold back from expressing the true depths of our desire in case we look like sluts. Or we try, our sweetheart looks slightly shocked or surprised, and we never try again.

Maybe we decide we really are a bit "wrong" and it's better never mentioned. Thus men think their fears are confirmed and everyone continues in one massive, cyclical, co-dependent failure to, as Stephen Fry terms it, "get our rocks off". Or they have affairs.

It works both ways, of course. Some women, and I would imagine gay men too, fear that their male partners don't like sex that much, or just not with them. Sometimes, they are right. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone isn't talking about you. And how they don't fancy you.

An army of female journalists attacked Fry for saying (which he didn't) that women aren't sexual. But none of them dared to disagree with the idea that women don't want to screw strangers on Hampstead Heath. Goodness, no! The ladies are agreed that ladies don't want that!

Well, I think we all want to screw strangers on Hampstead Heath. I think we also want to wee and scratch ourselves on Hampstead Heath, and eat whenever we see food. The reasons not to… they are many and complicated, but it's not the absence of human desire.

Some of the reasons mean that we don't even know we want it. What I think I want is to do filthy and disrespectful things with someone I love and trust. That's not a moral code; I just think it's sexier, to unlock the hidden and forbidden with someone you also talk to politely at breakfast and watch being a civilised grown-up on social occasions. Conveniently, love also gets stronger if you share every dark secret. That's real intimacy.

But I'm wrong, because some people define intimacy differently. I'm wrong because some of you now think I'm a slut. I'm wrong because I'll never know how much more filthy, or how much less, I'd be without the billions of influences on our suggestible little brains, including those from centuries before we were born, that built the culture in which we live. Without those, maybe I'd be pushing a husband away, saying: "Ugh, I don't want that, it's disgusting!" Or maybe I'd be out cruising the heath in the nude.

Well… it's November. I'd take a scarf.

All I know is that there are too many billions of influences for any two of us to be the same. In the idea of how men might see women, I had a moment of sexual congruence with the brilliant Stephen Fry: 20 years older than me, male and gay. I doubt we'll have another.

But for anyone to say that Fry is "right" or "wrong" in any general sense is madness. As his clarification spelt out, he was just throwing around ideas about the incomprehensible. There's no point trying to find the truth of desire with anyone but your partner. There is no "women" or "men" or "sex". Sentences beginning with any of those words are usually meaningless. There is nothing but an infinite number of vibrating particles, and love.

And in saying that, of course, I'm probably wrong.
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Old 07-11-10, 04:57 PM
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Indeed, I think she is wrong... I mean, yes, everybody might be unique but you can give some pretty good generalisation about characters and the way most of us follow a template out of probably one or two dozen such templates...

Furthermore, I think evo. psy. has answered Fry's query. It used to be that men were considered driven to spread their seeds while women were genetically geared to faithfulness. This was proven to be bad sciences. Men ARE genetically driven to spread their seeds around but women are now proven to benefit from having more than one mate - I've heard two main axis drive women's cheating. First, it's the cuckoo strategy, kinda. Get a better man than the one you can get to commit to impregnate you and get the loser to help you raise the kid of the better man... The second is the variety is the spice of life strategy - Best to have offsprings from vastly different fathers... It multiplies the chances of one offspring with your genetic material to be adapted to whatever changing conditions they may face...
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Old 07-11-10, 05:09 PM
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Oh and nonetheless I'd be quite interested in meeting Victoria Coren in any dark alley of her choice... She seems like she'd be... lively
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Old 07-11-10, 05:53 PM
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Indeed, I think she is wrong... I mean, yes, everybody might be unique but you can give some pretty good generalisation about characters and the way most of us follow a template out of probably one or two dozen such templates...
But what practical use are they for anyone but an actuary? I don't need to reiterate the contempt I have for 99% of humanity, but I still wouldn't approach any one individual based on whatever stereotype I suspected them to be closest to (especially if that stereotype was something as large as "female"). They're too complicated for that. I mean, even the hackneyed old "pacing and leading" involves more attention to detail.

On the other hand, I guess it's what most people do and they muddle through alright, kidding themselves that the personalities they've invented for their acquaintances constitute a "relationship". Perhaps I shouldn't set myself such high standards.

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Furthermore, I think evo. psy. has answered Fry's query. It used to be that men were considered driven to spread their seeds while women were genetically geared to faithfulness. This was proven to be bad sciences. Men ARE genetically driven to spread their seeds around but women are now proven to benefit from having more than one mate - I've heard two main axis drive women's cheating. First, it's the cuckoo strategy, kinda. Get a better man than the one you can get to commit to impregnate you and get the loser to help you raise the kid of the better man... The second is the variety is the spice of life strategy - Best to have offsprings from vastly different fathers... It multiplies the chances of one offspring with your genetic material to be adapted to whatever changing conditions they may face...
Yeah, but do they enjoy it?
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Old 07-11-10, 07:24 PM
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I hear they do. Most of the time they have had to take fertility into account, though. Which can introduce a certain deliberateness, in some cases.
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Old 19-11-10, 01:56 AM
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The problem with Gilles allege evo psych model is that it still presents women as interested in the fate of children while men are only interested in producing them. Why should this be true? Men's procreation is to no good if all their offspring die off, hence one would expect a paternal instinct, whereupon the whole argument collapses.

I think the rerality goes beyond Fry's observation - it's not just that men struggle to beleieve that women really like sex, but also that they do not want to believe it. Because that allows them to be the model husband by ignoring their wife and concentrating on their job, by thereby fulfilling the niche of being a provider rather than a lover. How convenient to go to your daily job and think that this absolves you of all your need to look after the needs of another person whether sexual or emotional or familial?

IOW this is just another sexist myth; it's not popular becuase it is true, but because it is convenient.
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Old 26-11-10, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
The problem with Gilles allege evo psych model is that it still presents women as interested in the fate of children while men are only interested in producing them. Why should this be true? Men's procreation is to no good if all their offspring die off, hence one would expect a paternal instinct, whereupon the whole argument collapses.
I am not an expert so you might want to ask someone with better qualifications than myself. But, out of hand, I can suggest that men who do get the opportunity to spread their seed can adopt a shotgun approach to the whole business while less 'fortunate' men may decide paternal protection would be the way forward.

Furthermore, I don't recall things very clearly but it was suggested that a man could look after several children, which is why women didn't like their partners cheating - It could easily lead him to commit resources to his other offsprings at the expense of hers...

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How convenient to go to your daily job and think that this absolves you of all your need to look after the needs of another person whether sexual or emotional or familial? IOW this is just another sexist myth; it's not popular because it is true, but because it is convenient.
Dunno. How easier is it to be a provider than a lover? Earning enough to sustain a family comfortably is a pretty difficult target to achieve these days compare to listening to someone for a little while and having sex with them at not-too-irregular intervals...
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Old 26-11-10, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais View Post
Dunno. How easier is it to be a provider than a lover? Earning enough to sustain a family comfortably is a pretty difficult target to achieve these days compare to listening to someone for a little while and having sex with them at not-too-irregular intervals...
Except for the old stereotype of the wife as a nag; the commonplace jokes about men finding their married lives hellish. This is not so prevalent these days, thankfully, but I don't think it can be ignored. I'm suggesting that the popularity of the view of children being a female concern was at least partly due to it being convenient for men who wanted to concern themselves exclusively with their career. It was kind of unmanly to be concerned about your own kids. Perhaps a lot of that had to do with the social unaccectability of divorce and hence more people being trapped in marriages that had already broken down; but iot provided a lot of people with a motive to support a perception of maleness being bound up with "being the provider" as opposed to "being a partner". Such a provider could then also come home from work feeling that they had fulfilled their part of the deal and demanding that their dinner be ready, the kids put to bed, etc etc.
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Old 26-11-10, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by contracycle View Post
Except for the old stereotype of the wife as a nag; the commonplace jokes about men finding their married lives hellish.
Oh, that's still around but I am not sure how that's relevant...

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Such a provider could then also come home from work feeling that they had fulfilled their part of the deal and demanding that their dinner be ready, the kids put to bed, etc etc.
And, as I said, that deal was fine when there was plenty of good paying jobs to be had but, right now, I suspect quite a few guys would be happy to exchange the problem of being seen as "the provider" for being "the 'lover'/friend listening to the nagging wife and soothing her with some sex afterwards"... It looks a damn sight easier... Or, okay, maybe I am just projecting...
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Old 26-11-10, 04:40 PM
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No, look: what I'm saying is, there are motives for buying into a provider/carer narrative without being a genuine attempt to understand anything. And whteher this applies to any particular man doesn't really matter so much as its general popularity. Plus it's hardly unkown for an unemployed couch potatoe to demand that his wife do housework and cook and look after kids because these are "womens work" - even if she is in fact also the breadwinner.
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