Originally Posted by contracycle

Nor should you. But that doesn't mean that you think that everyone in the same set - not just those there - are subhuman.

Well, you said "models" and I am reacting to that. It's a fairly broad category and, frankly, this is not an activity or a role I got much respect or time for nor for those who practice that trade. It takes a significant amount of PR individualising some of them to make me feel/think different about those lucky few.

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Little while ago, you recounted coming across a poem or something, by some medieval person about the loss of their child. And you found this moving. So you recognise their humanity, even if they are only a role, or in fact in this case, only the echo of a voice from the past. So they are not objects.

Of course, I can relate to humanity as a whole. That's why that voice from the past did touch me. It speaks to my own humanity. But do I care/want to know if my waiter has lost a child? No. I don't ask, he doesn't tell and we just play our roles - Him as the waiter, me as the customer. He doesn't care, ask or worry about whether I have lost a child or what my fears and hopes are for my children.

And, lest you think I discriminate according to class, I'd have the same reaction with my personal banker. I just want him/her to perform his/her goddam function, not 'feel'/think of them as persons. And I don't expect them to feel or think that about me - I am just a problem customer and they want either the problem or me to go away. One way or the other.

Roles are being performed. Emotions are not engaged.

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Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.

So I found the banned photo and all I have to say is it should've been pulled down for the same reason 90% of CK ads should be as well. There is nothing sexy about half naked heroin addicts.

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Righteousness will always be the trap at the gates of hell

Originally Posted by Gilles de Rais

Well, you said "models" and I am reacting to that. It's a fairly broad category and, frankly, this is not an activity or a role I got much respect or time for nor for those who practice that trade. It takes a significant amount of PR individualising some of them to make me feel/think different about those lucky few.

I didn't introduce that issue, you did.

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Of course, I can relate to humanity as a whole. That's why that voice from the past did touch me. It speaks to my own humanity... Roles are being performed. Emotions are not engaged.

Yes precisely. Whereas if people are dehumanised and objectified, you would not regard them as human, and their experiences would not speak to your humanity.

so that is clearly NOT what you are doing, and your assertion that you treat people as objects is just an affectation.

Originally Posted by contracycle

So that is clearly NOT what you are doing, and your assertion that you treat people as objects is just an affectation.

I can cry to a good movie and feel connected to a sad character when I actually know everyone is acting and the story not real and not feel nearly as much compassion for the real life "Big Issue" guy I cross paths with quite often...

As I said, I don't find the idea/concept of 'objectification' very useful because I agree that I don't consider humans as objects in the sense that I wouldn't slam one against the other the way I can slam a mug against a table when I am angry. I also talk to people while I try to avoid doing that with objects...

But what I meant by "everybody is an object to your own self, the subject" is, well, correct enough - It's the idea that other people especially those that are not relevant to your personal life story are just entities with little substance. You can understand them or their problems anyhow because they're humans like you but they are NOT linked to you and so you will interact with them without forming relationships.

Thus, a pretty woman in the street is just a good looking piece of meat. I might look at her for a micro second and then she is gone from my visual field and gone from my mind and then gone, never to be seen or thought about ever again. I wouldn't call her an object in the sense that I know it's a human and I know I cannot decide to go and grab her but it's not a person in the sense that we do not have a relationship and I couldn't care less about her personality, idiosyncracies, dreams, hopes, fears, problems - I just enjoyed seeing her legs moved well for a microsecond, that's it. And there is nothing to it. I certainly don't expect her to have even noticed me or, had she done so, to similarly worry about or ponder who I am...

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Unless otherwise specified, I am posting as a regular poster. When I will act as a mod, I'll make sure you're in no doubt.

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The banning of material that didn't conform to the party line in the 30s certainly helped to turn it into an authoritarian society.

This related to ideologically unacceptable knickers?

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Yes, let's hand over our freedom of expression to our rulers, I can't see anything that could possibly go wrong with that.

They might choose to rip out all your pubic hair in the interests of wabisabi. But would that affect your subsequent choice of knickers?