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Old 03-08-10, 02:45 PM
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Default Was the Australian nation forged in the fires of WWI?

Over the past 25 years and especially over the last decade, a myth has originated that the Australian nation (which came into existence on January 26 1901, when the state colonies agreed to join forces) was forged in the crucible of WWI, most particularly the maritime landing at Gallipoli and the consequent brutal fire from the enemy Turkish forces.

For one thing, the Gallipoli landing was a total military debacle. (AFAIK only the Polish nation is more assiduous than Australia in celebrating military defeats.) For another thing, a fair number of Australian troops were ratbags.

This report in The Sydney Morning Herald yesterday has drawn the usual shit-storm of criticism about how it trashes Our Nation's Glorious Past, and the Brave Soldiers who Died to Safeguard Democracy:
Portrait of the Anzacs: deserters more interested in booze, brawls and sex
STEVE MEACHAM



The postcard shows 10 Australian Diggers in their slouch hats and World War I uniforms grinning for the camera. But it was the message on the other side that must have infuriated the army's chief military policeman at the French port of Le Havre.

For the soldiers were Anzac deserters who had sent their carefully posed photo with the taunting sign-off: ''Au revoir, Nous 'us'.''

Peter Stanley says the postcard is merely the most celebrated example of bad behaviour by Australia's original Anzacs.

''Australians were 10 times more likely to go absent in the Great War than British soldiers, or the Canadians or New Zealanders,'' says the British-born Stanley, who was principal historian at the Australian War Memorial before moving to the National Museum of Australia where he is the director of historical research.

''It embarrassed Australian commanders and it infuriated British officers like Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig that so many Australians were legging it. The British wanted Australia to introduce the death penalty for desertion but Australia never did.''

Stanley's latest book, Bad Characters: Sex, Crime, Mutiny, Murder and the Australian Imperial Force, published today by Pier 9, is described as ''a frank history'' that explores aspects of the Australian Imperial Force which are usually omitted.

According to the publisher's blurb: ''These were the men who went absent and deserted, caught or concealed VD, got drunk and fought their comrades, who stole, malingered, behaved insolently toward officers or committed more serious offences, including rape and murder.''

Stanley says there was no official cover-up. ''All the records are sitting there in National Archives. But Australians have preferred to dwell on the positives - on the best commanders, the best battalions, the great battles. And they have been reluctant to ask questions which result in awkward answers.''

As he points out, ''at least seven of Australia's 60 Victoria Cross recipients contracted VD''. In fact, Australian soldiers were three times more likely than their British counterparts to get a sexually transmitted infection.

After unsuccessfully getting padres to preach to the men, then putting brothels off limits, Australian officers eventually issued medical advice about preventive ointments and douches. Only then did the STI rate decline.

Stanley says there are no statistics to show whether the Anzacs were more prone to drunkenness than their fellow soldiers. ''But the AIF was male Australia in uniform. Drink was an important part of life out of uniform, so it became a big part of life in uniform too.''

Part of the reason for the terrible discipline of the Australian troops, Stanley says, was that ''these men were volunteers who brought with them into uniform the same ideas, attitudes and beliefs they had had as civilians. Right to the end of the war, the Australians still responded to the army as if it was an annoying employer''.

Ill-discipline and insubordination were the flipside of the famous mateship, larrikinism and independence of spirit that is celebrated in Anzac mythology. ''They were enterprising in battle but they were also enterprising in getting out of the things the army wanted them to do.''

Only a handful of Anzacs were charged with murder but there were undoubtedly many rapes - of British, French and Middle Eastern women. ''They were reported and it is clear that they happened,'' says Stanley. ''But I couldn't find any successful prosecutions. It was clearly too big an embarrassment.''
These soldiers could be heavily criticised for failing to support the esprit de corps; on the other hand they could be lauded for realising that they were on a fool's errand to risk dying in a war that had nothing to do with the security of their nation.

The short answer to the original question is "no". People who think it was are perpetrating a ridiculous myth.

Last edited by roadkill; 03-08-10 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 03-08-10, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by roadkill View Post
''These were the men who went absent and deserted, caught or concealed VD, got drunk and fought their comrades, who stole, malingered, behaved insolently toward officers or committed more serious offences, including rape and murder.''
I hope that, had I been sent to fight in WWI, I'd have had the balls to behave in exactly the same manner.
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Old 03-08-10, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by roadkill View Post
The short answer to the original question is "no". People who think it was are perpetrating a ridiculous myth.
100% agree. I dislike that sort of language muchly. Whatever nations are, they are not metal objects that can be forged. So we're into metaphorical thinking. Wars are not forges, either. So we've got two metaphors in one one sentence. Metaphors basically are cognitive tricks that trigger reactions based on connecting things through word symbols. They may make great sense, or none at all.

Hmm, maybe this suspicion toward metaphors is related to my hatred of poetry....
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Old 03-08-10, 03:05 PM
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Incidentally, if I had to pick an instant I think it'd probably be the realisation that the British were entirely prepared to abandon their colony to the Japanese after the fall of Singapore...
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Old 03-08-10, 04:23 PM
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What Z said. FFS, this was WWI. A butchery like none before and the reason WWII beats it is because it spread the butchery from 'soldiers-only' to 'everyone's fair game'.

If you could try and desert, you would. Or you should.
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Old 04-08-10, 03:30 PM
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So it's a rather scary thing for a previous prime minister to try to claim, as John Howard did, that the soul of Australia was forged in the fires of WWI. New Zealand, that contributed to that war at least in proportion to its population, never adopted that sort of nonsense.

ANZAC Day (April 25) is a public holiday in both countries and a time for reflecting on the sacrifice of those who died, but NZ has a pragmatic attitude. Many years ago I had a friend who was a night watchman in a Christchurch pub. In those days pubs were supposedly forbidden to open on ANZAC day but there was an annual roster. I remember an ANZAC Day when I helped Mike to line up around 150 slugs of whisky and full cream milk on the bar, ready for the influx of the soldiers.

April mornings can be cold in Christchurch. A notable number of the soldiers stayed in the bar until the parade was over. Considering what they had done in the war, could you blame them?
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Old 04-08-10, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by roadkill View Post
So it's a rather scary thing for a previous prime minister to try to claim, as John Howard did, that the soul of Australia was forged in the fires of WWI.
Is there any proof of that?

I am less allergic than Ben to metaphors. It doesn't wholly disturb me to say that France's soul was forged in the fires of The Hundred Years War - And then polished under the hammer of the French Revolution.

At least, it's partly true. THYW gave France (and England, i suspect) a sense of being a nation rather than a collection of duchies, earldoms and provinces. Thus, centralising efforts were facilitated afterward. And TFR defined lots of our modern-day institutions.

Can Australia relate in the same way to WWI? I doubt it. Z's pinpointing England's betrayal seems more likely to be correct.
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Old 04-08-10, 07:06 PM
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Aaaarrrgggg. Heedless metaphor mongering! You'll go on to crowd-making next, and then right into invasion of privacy.

It's odd though, you were talking before as if WWI was a bad thing....
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Old 04-08-10, 07:31 PM
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If it created Australia then it most certainly was...
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