Originally Posted by Zichao

Because you say so?

Because it's what you are doing.

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If you give the state the power to get inside citizens' heads you break this equation and give all the power to the state.

And the problem remains that this is YOUR ASSERTION, not a fact in evidence. And worse than that, it is an assertion you make by the alleged implications of actions you dislike. You dismissed all rehabilitative efforts as wrong in and of themselves,m regardless of the actual detail, and when confronted with the practical methods of rehabilitation try to exclude them becuase they don't match your assumptions about how psychologically intrusive they should be.

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"Do this or you will suffer" is at least a contract entered into by two rational adults equally capable of weighing up the pros and cons of complying with it. If one of them's been brainwashed the equality of the parties is gone.

And I point out that this is false dichotomy becuase we are born into a society that pre-exists us, and therefore do NOT willingly enter into the contract at all. In every practical sense it is imposed upon us against our will, and is then explained and rationalised to us as we get older.

Frex: at what point did you express your consent to this contract, and what would happen to you if you declined to accept it?

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Fine, call it unhealthy interest in mental process instead of rehabilitation and dump the technical training part. I'm interested in preserving a free society, not arguing over semantics.

Well that what rehabilitative methods are they that you you oppose?

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It can't even work out whether anyone is ever guilty of anything. I think it's going to have a difficult job handing down sentences.

Assuming your conclusion; I already rejected the premises of that argument so I am not bound to explore its corollaries.

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Well yes, it's one by-product of having free choice.

Or, of being impositional in a negative manner. But I suppose it doesn't matter how much harm we inflict, as long as we don't try to help? Because helping would be a terrible, terrible thing.

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But I'm not, however much you try to make me.

What else can you be doing when, despite the fact that we are locking up record numbers of people, often in conditions of overcrowding that themselves may inflict harm that isn't strictly speaking part of the sentence given out, your concern is that some of might possibly become productive citizens once their time is served? Horrors! They might ceased to be guilty evildoers! They will no longer bear the mark of Cain, to be shunned by the righteous! It's political correctness gone mad!

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Non sequitur.

Nope, it follows precisely.

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Because it's what you are doing.

Quote me.

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And the problem remains that this is YOUR ASSERTION, not a fact in evidence. And worse than that, it is an assertion you make by the alleged implications of actions you dislike. You dismissed all rehabilitative efforts as wrong in and of themselves,m regardless of the actual detail, and when confronted with the practical methods of rehabilitation try to exclude them becuase they don't match your assumptions about how psychologically intrusive they should be.

You pointed a method out that didn't fit into my categorisation, and I adapted my ideas to fit the (good) point that you made. I don't want to be dogmatic about the thing, after all.

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And I point out that this is false dichotomy becuase we are born into a society that pre-exists us, and therefore do NOT willingly enter into the contract at all. In every practical sense it is imposed upon us against our will, and is then explained and rationalised to us as we get older.

If you fail to leave or stage an insurrection then you're implicitly accepting the contract.

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Frex: at what point did you express your consent to this contract, and what would happen to you if you declined to accept it?

I could try to see if the rest of society felt the same and we could hold a rebellion, or I could just move to a different country.

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Well that what rehabilitative methods are they that you you oppose?

All those that involve changing citizens' opinions.

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Assuming your conclusion; I already rejected the premises of that argument so I am not bound to explore its corollaries.

But do I go to jail for this car I stole or not?

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Or, of being impositional in a negative manner. But I suppose it doesn't matter how much harm we inflict, as long as we don't try to help? Because helping would be a terrible, terrible thing.

It would cerainly undermine the democratic relationship between government and citizens, as well as doing serious damage to the foundation of our civic rights. Cost benefit analyses are very hot in admin these days. I've decided that it isn't worth chucking away all that on the off-chance that some crims might benefit from anger management classes.

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What else can you be doing when, despite the fact that we are locking up record numbers of people, often in conditions of overcrowding that themselves may inflict harm that isn't strictly speaking part of the sentence given out, your concern is that some of might possibly become productive citizens once their time is served? Horrors! They might ceased to be guilty evildoers! They will no longer bear the mark of Cain, to be shunned by the righteous! It's political correctness gone mad!

"The principle of my system is that if you follow the rules I won't do anything bad to you, pretty much the same as a mafia protection racket. Would you say that the mafia are enforcing a strict moral code and judging sinners when they go out shaking down shopkeepers?"

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Nope, it follows precisely.

Explain the steps.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

All those that involve changing citizens' opinions.

Such as?