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No - They got it from the medieval Arabs who colonised or converted them...

Proving that..?

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They don't?

Nope. They change.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

Proving that..?

They adopted the attitudes and the institutions of another place... Surely, you saw the parallel of "medieval Europeans" and "medieval Arabs"...

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Nope. They change.

Can they change for the best?

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They adopted the attitudes and the institutions of another place... Surely, you saw the parallel of "medieval Europeans" and "medieval Arabs"...

But I never said that such things don't ever happen.

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Can they change for the best?

For the better, sometimes, certainly.

The idea that we're all heading towards a final goal and third world countries are merely a little behind on the same path as us, however, is 19th century bollocks.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

But I never said that such things don't ever happen.

Then, I am not sure why you wrote "Would it be reasonable to conlude that they stole the idea from medieval Europeans?"

They did "steal" the idea. And it was from "medieval people". They were just Arabs instead of Europeans...

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The idea that we're all heading towards a final goal and third world countries are merely a little behind on the same path as us, however, is 19th century bollocks.

If there is a better way to do things (evolve for the better), then there is a worst way to do things.

Could there be several "better ways"? Sure. If you acknowledge that there are several different "final goals" emphasizing different "Good"... OTOH, whichever way you define "Good" (and, thus, measure societies), it seems hard to me to dispute the fact that Third Word countries are behind... Unless you have a very originial definition of "Good"...


A study was made about I can't remember which African country (Cameroon?). Basically, if you compare it for the US and adjusted for lack of capital and resources (incl. human ones), Cameroon was lower than it should have been... i.e. even with all the limitations they had, they were managing to undershoot what they could reasonably expect to achieve... The main reason was thought to be "corruption" (redistribution). No one was doing anything coz it was more or less guaranteed than someone else, more powerful and better connected would steal all the profit from you...

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Then, I am not sure why you wrote "Would it be reasonable to conlude that they stole the idea from medieval Europeans?" They did "steal" the idea. And it was from "medieval people". They were just Arabs instead of Europeans...

My point was that similar systems can develop independently. That doesn't mean that you can treat them as though they're the same.

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If there is a better way to do things (evolve for the better), then there is a worst way to do things. Could there be several "better ways"? Sure. If you acknowledge that there are several different "final goals" emphasizing different "Good"... OTOH, whichever way you define "Good" (and, thus, measure societies), it seems hard to me to dispute the fact that Third Word countries are behind... Unless you have a very originial definition of "Good"...

Do you mean that they're on the same path as us but slower, or that their own path isn't as pleasant as ours?

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A study was made about I can't remember which African country (Cameroon?). Basically, if you compare it for the US and adjusted for lack of capital and resources (incl. human ones), Cameroon was lower than it should have been... i.e. even with all the limitations they had, they were managing to undershoot what they could reasonably expect to achieve... The main reason was thought to be "corruption" (redistribution). No one was doing anything coz it was more or less guaranteed than someone else, more powerful and better connected would steal all the profit from you...

Gee. Was it by any chance conducted by Westerners?

An alternative interpretation might be that our interventions keep throwing the original system off balance.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

My point was that similar systems can develop independently.

Except it didn't. The Malys stole it/adapted it from their medieval muslim ancestors.

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That doesn't mean that you can treat them as though they're the same.

If they are similar enough, why not? Are they functionally different?

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Do you mean that they're on the same path as us but slower, or that their own path isn't as pleasant as ours?

Societies aren't particularly good at articulating their own objectives. The US/Americans would say they value "individual freedom" (Be all you can be) and "low taxes" (no gvt interference in your individual freedom) while the Swedes would probably point towards "equality" or possibly "fairness"... You can then try to measure which system is working, on its own terms, as well as estimating which system you yourself would individually prefer...

So there are a variety of "paths" as there are a variety of "goal". OTOH, I can't imagine "screwing everyone below me or from that different ethny, which I really hate for no good reason" as a path or a goal of any worth...

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Gee. Was it by any chance conducted by Westerners?

'course.

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An alternative interpretation might be that our interventions keep throwing the original system off balance.

How does that explain a lower GDP per capita than technically possible? Your interpretation is probably very PC or post-postmodern ("they are no absolute, it's all relative") but I don't buy that.

I am willing to concede that there might be slightly different goals (although, funnily enough, "fairness" is probably the one word summary upon which nearly everyone agrees) but I don't see what kind of worthy goal "Ancient Regimes" were or are achieving...

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Except it didn't. The Malys stole it/adapted it from their medieval muslim ancestors.

I presume they in turn stole it from the barbarians that overran Western Europe following the fall of the Roman empire.

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If they are similar enough, why not? Are they functionally different?

Well sure, it's okay if you've got no intellectual curiosity or concern for the wider view.

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Societies aren't particularly good at articulating their own objectives. The US/Americans would say they value "individual freedom" (Be all you can be) and "low taxes" (no gvt interference in your individual freedom) while the Swedes would probably point towards "equality" or possibly "fairness"... You can then try to measure which system is working, on its own terms, as well as estimating which system you yourself would individually prefer... So there are a variety of "paths" as there are a variety of "goal". OTOH, I can't imagine "screwing everyone below me or from that different ethny, which I really hate for no good reason" as a path or a goal of any worth...

So what is it that the third world is behind? Presumably their own past as there is no other comparison possible. In this case clearly it is not their culture that is the problem but ours as it was imposed upon them.

I mean, the theory that I'm arguing on behalf of here isn't perfect, but it's internally coherent.

'course.

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How does that explain a lower GDP per capita than technically possible? Your interpretation is probably very PC or post-postmodern ("they are no absolute, it's all relative") but I don't buy that.

1. I don't care about GDP, I care about quality of life.
2. You want me to prove how imported institutions are bad for African economies? How about you justify why African ones are?

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I am willing to concede that there might be slightly different goals (although, funnily enough, "fairness" is probably the one word summary upon which nearly everyone agrees) but I don't see what kind of worthy goal "Ancient Regimes" were or are achieving...

Security.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

I presume they in turn stole it from the barbarians that overran Western Europe following the fall of the Roman empire.

Erm, no. It was imagined by Mohammed himself (i think) as a way to deal with "People of the Book" as opposed to pagans (pagans were fair game for anything you might want to do to them).

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So what is it that the third world is behind? Presumably their own past as there is no other comparison possible. In this case clearly it is not their culture that is the problem but ours as it was imposed upon them.

I wouldn't presume that there is a grammatical fault but I don't get the question. Is it "why are they behind?" or "in what are they behind"?

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1. I don't care about GDP, I care about quality of life.

The two are highly correlated. It sucks being a Cameroonese, whichever objective measure you want to use.

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2. You want me to prove how imported institutions are bad for African economies? How about you justify why African ones are?

I just did. African institutions take a given level of input (not great ones but, hey, that's life, you got to start somewhere) and produce inferior results. By any reasonable, objective measures. What more do you want?

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Security.

Not even that when your profit can be stolen by any guy in with the administration and doubly so if you happen to be of the wrong ethny...

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My wife and I have been to Malaysia twice, once in 1972 and once in 1983. There were no sharia laws at that time; the relationship between Malays, Tamils, and Chinese was fairly informal; alcohol was not an issue anywhere; and I didn't see any head-scarves. Same in Indonesia by the way.

The majority of the Malays and Indonesians (on Java island) were Muslims, but their form of Islam was rather relaxed.

This is a fairly recent phenomenon. Islam is moving toward more extreme forms in most Muslim nations, and I suspect that the U.S. with their constant wars throughout the Mideast is not entirely blameless.

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Erm, no. It was imagined by Mohammed himself (i think) as a way to deal with "People of the Book" as opposed to pagans (pagans were fair game for anything you might want to do to them).

So in other words these similar systems developed independently.

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I wouldn't presume that there is a grammatical fault but I don't get the question. Is it "why are they behind?" or "in what are they behind"?

Neither. Are they behind us? Or some idealised version of themselves?

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The two are highly correlated. It sucks being a Cameroonese, whichever objective measure you want to use.

Not so highly correlated that Costa Rica isn't the happiest place on earth. Happiness in Nations

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I just did. African institutions take a given level of input (not great ones but, hey, that's life, you got to start somewhere) and produce inferior results. By any reasonable, objective measures. What more do you want?

You didn't prove whether that was the fault of our institutions or theirs.

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Not even that when your profit can be stolen by any guy in with the administration and doubly so if you happen to be of the wrong ethny...

Are we still talking about the Ancien Régime here? I didn't even know that they had ethnicities.

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