Yeah. I'm attaining snobbery levels unheard-of since the demise of the Edwardian homosexual. I know.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

In that case I don't think it's bad aesthetics, I just think it's pointless. I mean, why do something if you don't want to?

Well, there's got to be more than black & white - Either 100% I do or no, -100%, I don't want to do it...

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Well yeah, it's an option. On the other hand, I don't think playing a computer game necessarily makes you look ridiculous. Paying $60 to be yelled at by an actress in a nightie? We're on far shakier ground there. If that doesn't bother you, then it's not even an issue.

No, I don't disagree. There's such a thing as rent-a-sub if someone wanted to abuse another human being, for a £100 or so. I personally find this pretty unsatisfying for the reasons you mention and some other reasons too.

But, if a few people want to do it and it's like, their choice, free of charge, I think it's pretty comparable to gaming. Something more interactive than just reading/watching a movie but, of course, not the real thing.

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Well, there's got to be more than black & white - Either 100% I do or no, -100%, I don't want to do it...

Yeah, I guess a person might be conflicted or have neuroses or whatever. I'm assuming that the person involved is capable of ranking their preferences all homo oeconomicus style.

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No, I don't disagree. There's such a thing as rent-a-sub if someone wanted to abuse another human being, for a £100 or so. I personally find this pretty unsatisfying for the reasons you mention and some other reasons too. But, if a few people want to do it and it's like, their choice, free of charge, I think it's pretty comparable to gaming. Something more interactive than just reading/watching a movie but, of course, not the real thing.

I've never said it should be banned, just that I think there's a strong argument for it being aestheticall unappealing. You can say that aesthetics is subjective. Personally I'd argue that there are some objective rules, but that's another discussion.

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Personally, my thought processes go:

1. Violent stuff is interesting and I'd like to do more of it.
2. But currently it's not worth the risk of going to jail.
3. So I could go to a fake horror show like in the OP.
4. But I'd feel ridiculous.
5. So I'll just stay at home and read Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei.

Might be indescribably lame, but it follows its own internal logic impecably.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

Yeah, I guess a person might be conflicted or have neuroses or whatever. I'm assuming that the person involved is capable of ranking their preferences all homo oeconomicus style.

And my point was that, when ranking preferences, I can go: Killing people for real in sickening violent ways: baaaahhh, not so much. Playing at the same: Hot. Paying for playing at the same: Not.

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I've never said it should be banned...

Neither have I. As I said, what I find interesting isn't the thing in itself - it does seem a bit contrived, unappealing - but the fact that it is taking something supposedly perverted and looked down upon and proving that it does have a wide popular appeal...

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You can say that aesthetics is subjective. Personally I'd argue that there are some objective rules, but that's another discussion.

' could be an interesting thread. I am strongly in the "tastes and colours" camp...

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What about:

1. Violent stuff is interesting and I'd like to do more of it.
2. But my social and genetic programming doesn't make the real deal appealing to me.
3. So I could go to a fake horror show like in the OP.
4. But I'd feel ridiculous.
5. So I'll just find someone whose fantasies are not different from mine and play it out.

It still might be indescribably lame ('tastes and colours') but how is it not following its own internal logic impeccably?

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And my point was that, when ranking preferences, I can go: Killing people for real in sickening violent ways: baaaahhh, not so much. Playing at the same: Hot. Paying for playing at the same: Not.

For me whether you're paying for it or you aren't, it's still Not. It's still basically something pretending, unironically, to be something else. For me that comes close to being the definition of kitsch.

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' could be an interesting thread. I am strongly in the "tastes and colours" camp...

I remember a magazine article I once read about a guy who'd created a "Museum of Bad Taste". A couple of his friends argued that bad taste was subjective, so he invited them to see it. They go round the thing, and finally one of them says. "Well, I agree that those things could hardly be described as good taste..."

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What about: 1. Violent stuff is interesting and I'd like to do more of it. 2. But my social and genetic programming doesn't make the real deal appealing to me. 3. So I could go to a fake horror show like in the OP. 4. But I'd feel ridiculous. 5. So I'll just find someone whose fantasies are not different from mine and play it out. It still might be indescribably lame ('tastes and colours') but how is it not following its own internal logic impeccably?

But it still doesn't take into account the difference between real and fake that is the key thing for me.

I enjoy making people do what I want. They're not crying on the floor in front of me, but they might be walking on eggshells because I've let on that I'm in a bad mood. It's just something small, but it's real - they've got no choice in the matter. If they were just pretending because that was the game we were playing it wouldn't interest me at all. Equally, I just don't even see the reason why I should pretend to be scared of something that I know is fake.

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Speaking of bizutage:

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L'affaire de bizutage fait une nouvelle fois trembler le monde universitaire. Le 25 octobre dernier en pleine après-midi, un étudiant de 18 ans en première année de licence a été agressé, dans les locaux de l'université, lors d'une réunion de la «Japad» (Jeune association pour la promotion des activités à Dauphine). Au cours de cette réunion très alcoolisée, un membre de l'association lui a gravé dans le dos les lettres «Japad» à l'aide d'une capsule de bouteille. Après les faits, le jeune étudiant est rentré chez lui dans un état physique et psychologique calamiteux. Le lendemain, il porte plainte. Une plainte transmise le 7 novembre au parquet qui a ensuite saisi le premier district de la Police Judiciaire. Aujourd'hui, de nouvelles révélations viennent rompre l'omerta qui règne sur l'affaire. «Je sentais comme des piqûres» Le procès-verbal de la victime relate ainsi des faits graves: «Ils m'ont dit d'enlever ma chemise, de baisser mon pantalon et de me mettre à genoux. (…) Ils m'ont attaché à un manche à balais, les mains derrières les épaules. (…). Ils m'ont ensuite donné trois coups de pieds dans les côtes, le troisième était beaucoup plus fort que les deux premiers. (…) Ils m'ont ensuite passé quelque chose autour du cou, une corde je pense (…). Ils serraient la corde de plus en plus, je n'ai pas perdu connaissance, mais j'avais des difficultés à parler. Ils m'ont fait boire de la bière [à haute dose]. (….) Je sentais comme des piqûres dans mon dos mais je ne savais pas ce qu'ils faisaient». Ce sont les termes mêmes des déclarations de la victime aux enquêteurs. Résultat: six jours d'interruption totale de travail et des dégâts psychologiques à suivre. Deux des quatre accusés sont déjà passés aux aveux, reconnaissant une partie des faits. Une atmosphère rugby La défense nuance cette version des faits. Selon l'avocat d'un des accusés, la victime «savait parfaitement à quoi s'en tenir» avec la Japad: «L'atmosphère rugby et le déroulé des entretiens de la Japad n'étaient un secret pour personne à Dauphine». L'avocat va plus loin en osant des propos assez surprenants voire choquants: «la victime minore sa motivation et son rôle». L'étudiant qui a porté plainte aurait ainsi de lui-même «apporté pour le bizutage sa propre bouteille de vodka». Par ailleurs, il se serait déshabillé «avant même qu'on le lui demande» afin d'exhiber «son torse sur lequel il avait inscrit lui-même au marqueur les lettres “Japad”». «Il est allé jusqu'à enlever volontairement son caleçon pour montrer ses fesses sur lesquelles était écrit BDE (Bureau des élèves)», précise l'avocat. Reste que pour la police, si le jeune étudiant s'est effectivement rendu librement à l'entretien, le bizutage a tourné à la surenchère. Aujourd'hui, l'enquête progresse donc. Quatre personnes ont été placées sous contrôle judiciaire et mises en examen la semaine dernière pour «violences volontaires en réunion avec arme par destination ayant entraîné une incapacité totale de travail de moins de 8 jours». Du côté de la justice, la peine encourue pour ces faits est de six mois de prison et 7500 euros d'amende. Du côté de l'université, la commission disciplinaire se réunira le 15 Décembre. Et les sanctions pourraient aller jusqu'à l'exclusion définitive de tout établissement public de l'enseignement supérieur.

Le Figaro - France : L'enquête sur le bizutage à Dauphine progresse

Totally on their side. Don't get me wrong, the people who did it are a bunch of oafs (I don't think I've ever met a member of a BDE who wasn't), but the complainant is clearly an oaf and a whiner, so they win on points.

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Agreed. The lawyer for the guilty idiots has it right. The victim knew the deal. You can't rescind consent after the fact. Only before or during.

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Originally Posted by Zichao

I enjoy making people do what I want. They're not crying on the floor in front of me, but they might be walking on eggshells because I've let on that I'm in a bad mood. It's just something small, but it's real - they've got no choice in the matter. If they were just pretending because that was the game we were playing it wouldn't interest me at all. Equally, I just don't even see the reason why I should pretend to be scared of something that I know is fake.

Although I guess that the problem with this argument is that people can talk themselves into believing something's real when it's fake... Well. I have no interest in them, so my point stands.

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